Clay and Lipinski sign new deals

[bulldogtragic]

We rewarded a player with a contract who simply came back in 2017 in poor condition. I'm not sure what example that sends the playing list or why we accepted it.
Given his limitations with his skill level to me unless he is fit and a competitive beast with his contested work he will struggle to be an effective player for us.
Has the penny dropped with him? He should consider himself fortunate but I somehow doubt it.

By 'we' it was JMac that signed it up. Why would JMac do that?

[GVGjr]

By 'we' it was JMac that signed it up. Why would JMac do that?

You don't think the senior coach and the assistants would have been part of the decision?

[bulldogtragic]

You don't think the senior coach and the assistants would have been part of the decision?

Yes, but I'd like to have this discussion. Shouldn't JMac be able to push them back somewhat? Isn't he meant to protect the list from the wishes of others? There's been a few questionable re-signings over the last 12 months, and Crameri possibly going back to Essendon for SFA while they have Merrett (yes a BMac one).

I think it's a philosophical question for the club, and those interested in thinking about it, about what a list manager does, should do and role of others in that. To that end, if JMacs role is to sign blokes Bevo or assistants want then we can get a year 10 work experience kid for virtually free to do it and save the wage.

[GVGjr]

Yes, but I'd like to have this discussion. Shouldn't JMac be able to push them back somewhat? Isn't he meant to protect the list from the wishes of others? There's been a few questionable re-signings over the last 12 months, and Crameri possibly going back to Essendon for SFA while they have Merrett (yes a BMac one).

I think it's a philosophical question for the club, and those interested in thinking about it, about what a list manager does, should do and role of others in that. To that end, if JMacs role is to sign blokes Bevo or assistants want then we can get a year 10 work experience kid for virtually free to do it and save the wage.

Is the Crameri example you have raised, especially given it wasn't a questionable decision, in anyway relevant to the Clay Smith example on this thread?

Coaches should be able to identify a player or two that they want to bring into the side and they certainly should have some say on the players being offered contract extensions. It's a fine line to balance though.
The list manager, from my limited understanding, is to do the required work on building a list management strategy and presenting the opportunities that present with players coming out of contract or contracted players looking for opportunities elsewhere. He also needs to manage the TPP and oversee the delistings etc. All this needs to be done with the coaches input but I suspect there are vigorous debates at times and the GM of Footy would need to work with both the Senior Coach and the List Manager to sort out the challenges.

In these changing times it's probably a decent debate to work out how much input senior coaches should have.

[bornadog]

Is the Crameri example you have raised, especially given it wasn't a questionable decision, in anyway relevant to the Clay Smith example on this thread?

Coaches should be able to identify a player or two that they want to bring into the side and they certainly should have some say on the players being offered contract extensions. It's a fine line to balance though.
The list manager, from my limited understanding, is to do the required work on building a list management strategy and presenting the opportunities that present with players coming out of contract or contracted players looking for opportunities elsewhere. He also needs to manage the TPP and oversee the delistings etc. All this needs to be done with the coaches input but I suspect there are vigorous debates at times and the GM of Footy would need to work with both the Senior Coach and the List Manager to sort out the challenges.

In these changing times it's probably a decent debate to work out how much input senior coaches should have.

I think the coach has to be involved, it would make no sense if he wasn't. The MC would make the final decision as a working group in the players the club wants to eep or delist. The list manager needs to negotiate with the player managers and ensure we keep those players. The duties of the list manager would be as you say above.

One of the biggest issues we had prior to JMac coming to the club, was list management as we didn't have a dedicated list manager. Fantasia tried to do both the Football management and list management and this cost as guys like Ward and Harbrow.

[Twodogs]

I think the List Managers main function is to save the coach from himself. If it were left to the coaching staff they'd recruit the first 43 blokes who walked through the door and then stand around arguing about the fact they ain't allowed any more after that. A List Manager is the bloke who gets to say "sorry, but no" to the coach.

[GVGjr]

One of the biggest issues we had prior to JMac coming to the club, was list management as we didn't have a dedicated list manager. Fantasia tried to do both the Football management and list management and this cost as guys like Ward and Harbrow.

I get what you are saying but I don't quite agree with this, for many years we had Scott Clayton who was doing both the recruiting and list management roles and he was largely left alone. Wallace in particular left recruiting alone but like both he and Eade the coaches had a lot of say on who was coming and going via trades and who was being offered contract extensions.
I know why we lost Harbrow and there wasn't much anyone could do but both the coach and the GM made significant errors with the Ward negotiation.

[bornadog]

I get what you are saying but I don't quite agree with this, for many years we had Scott Clayton who was doing both the recruiting and list management roles and he was largely left alone. Wallace in particular left recruiting alone but like both he and Eade the coaches had a lot of say on who was coming and going via trades and who was being offered contract extensions.
I know why we lost Harbrow and there wasn't much anyone could do but both the coach and the GM made significant errors with the Ward negotiation.

At the time the coach kept telling Fantasia to stitch up Ward, but he kept saying he had it in hand. I still think we could have kept Harbrow. I don't believe in the "I want to go back to family in Queensland". Half his family live in Mooroopna.

Clayton may have been largely left alone, but that was a mistake in hindsight. Not sure what you don't agree with? Do you mean not having a dedicated list manager?

[GVGjr]

At the time the coach kept telling Fantasia to stitch up Ward, but he kept saying he had it in hand. I still think we could have kept Harbrow. I don't believe in the "I want to go back to family in Queensland". Half his family live in Mooroopna.

Clayton may have been largely left alone, but that was a mistake in hindsight. Not sure what you don't agree with? Do you mean not having a dedicated list manager?

I was disagreeing with the notion that we didn't have a list manager until J-Mac arrived. The role was split by then but Clayton was never just the recruiter of junior football talent. His role was more than that. Fantasia had too much on and I don't think he was good at recruiting or list management anyway.

I'll leave the Ward one alone. We have differing views.

Clayton had two long term coaches with us and they both never really got involved with recruiting. They certainly did with trading and player contracts but largely he and the team were left alone with recruiting the younger players.

It's changed now and coaches are more active in that area. Defining how much say they should have might be difficult.

[bornadog]

I was disagreeing with the notion that we didn't have a list manager until J-Mac arrived.

You left out one word I said dedicated list manager, meaning someone that just performed that role.