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  1. #31
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    Re: Hawthorn 2009 > Western Bulldogs 2017

    I don't follow/analyse what other teams do as much as others do and I'd be interested to hear views as to what differentiates teams for whom a flag becomes a springboard for success as opposed to One Hit Wonders. I'd really hoped with our very young list we'd build a dynasty a la Geelong - I thought, like them, finally winning a flag might actually be free of the psychological damage haunting us so long and be hungry for more. Collingwood in 2010 were as young as us, I think? What did they do wrong that the Hawks avoided?
    www.bulldogtragician.com A blog about being a lifelong fan of the Dogs and our quixotic attempt to replicate 1954. AND WE DID
    Author of "The Mighty West: the Bulldogs journey from daydream believers to premiership heroes"
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  2. #32
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    Re: Hawthorn 2009 > Western Bulldogs 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by The bulldog tragician View Post
    I don't follow/analyse what other teams do as much as others do and I'd be interested to hear views as to what differentiates teams for whom a flag becomes a springboard for success as opposed to One Hit Wonders. I'd really hoped with our very young list we'd build a dynasty a la Geelong - I thought, like them, finally winning a flag might actually be free of the psychological damage haunting us so long and be hungry for more. Collingwood in 2010 were as young as us, I think? What did they do wrong that the Hawks avoided?
    Collingwood = Buckley. They were younger than our premiership team.

    Hawthorn = traded very, very well from 2009-2015. (Burgoyne, Gibson, Hale, McEvoy, Gunston, Lake, Frawley etc, etc). Once their attitude and work ethic matched their talent and the core group of kids hit maturity together, it was outstanding. Them staying for less cash was important too (see JJ).
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

  3. #33
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    Re: Hawthorn 2009 > Western Bulldogs 2017

    Looking at the Hawathorn 2009 trade period, they were bloody busy about setting out what they wanted and in what order. A heap of trades to pull off their bounty of their priority was a tall defender and elite midfielder (Burgoyne & Gibson at their peak). To make it happen they moved on fan favourite and previous club leading goal kicker Williams, plus short of opportunity players Kennedy & McGlynn. The latter had good careers, Kennedy excellent still. But with their good picks included too, they were able to land both key priorities KPD & elite mid, and line up another tall forward for recruiting later on.

    I think we are in the same boat as them, including priorities. Except we have the advantage of free agency to help us. Say like Williams, a fan favourite like JJ leaves for a big pay day, then we have the cap to very comfortably pursue Fyfe (or Martin). Then we have what we can get from the trade table for JJ, add it to our first rounder and look to a draft points trade with our second and third to get a highish second rounder. Presumably 3 picks inside 25 should put us in an excellent position to attack a genuinely good KPD and another need, maybe a pacey, dangerous small forward.

    I think JJ stays, but if his form and lack of fight is a reflection on where his mind is, then he might be the one that brings in a big salary cap saving and a very good trade return. Retire Boyd & Bob, save big in Crammers contract, move Campbell, Honey & Hamilton to save some extra cash. Add in whatever extra the CBA gets us. Remembering Dalrymple has indicated we still have the Hurkey cash at hand, and ready to use.

    Say $2,500,000 and possibly 3 picks inside 25, to (1) land Fyfe as a free agent, (2) land a gun KPD through trade and (3) land a dangerous small forward through trade. That certainly plays to the adage of 'trading for need'.

    Hope our young talls come on, sooner rather than later, throw Webb back to the HBF with Williams, Roarke, Dale & Lynch to step up alongside Wood, Biggs & Suckling. In time use this KPD, Adams & Cordy as a third and rebounding defender with Roberts & Collins around too. Pair Bonts & Fyfe up as a paid or huge, and hugely talented mids. Then bring another dimension to our forward line. There's plenty of kids developing, so some mature talent helps the profile if they're decent.

    Looking at history, I'd say that's what the Hawthorn list manager from 2009 would do this year with us.
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

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  5. #34
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    Re: Hawthorn 2009 > Western Bulldogs 2017

    2009 Hawthorn traded picks (9) Burgoyne & (25 & 41) Gibson

    2017 Bulldogs with around picks (9) & (27 & 38) - Virtually identical picks. I wonder how we are going to approach trade/draft season.
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

  6. #35
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    Re: Hawthorn 2009 > Western Bulldogs 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogtragic View Post
    2009 Hawthorn traded picks (9) Burgoyne & (25 & 41) Gibson

    2017 Bulldogs with around picks (9) & (27 & 38) - Virtually identical picks. I wonder how we are going to approach trade/draft season.
    I hope it is Lever and some midfield pace we are so one dimensional in the middle.
    But then again, I'm an Internet poster and Bevo is a premiership coach so draw your own conclusions.

  7. #36
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    Re: Hawthorn 2009 > Western Bulldogs 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by 1eyedog View Post
    I hope it is Lever and some midfield pace we are so one dimensional in the middle.
    That's my wish too. Like Hawthorn did in 09, I'd trade all three picks, use free agency on the right players and tinker at the draft.
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

  8. #37
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    Re: Hawthorn 2009 > Western Bulldogs 2017

    Who did Hawthorn draft in 2009 BT?
    Have you been reading those Roddy Doyle books again, Dougal!?


    I have, yeah Ted, you big gobshite

  9. #38
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    Re: Hawthorn 2009 > Western Bulldogs 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Twodogs View Post
    Who did Hawthorn draft in 2009 BT?
    Sam Grimley at 39;
    Ben Stratton at 45;
    Jordan Williams at 57;
    Rhan Hooper at 58;
    Taylor Duryea at 69;
    Matt Suckling at 70 (Promoted Rookie).

    They also rookied Wayde Skipper.

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  11. #39
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    Re: Hawthorn 2009 > Western Bulldogs 2017

    So? What can we learn?
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

  12. #40
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    Re: Hawthorn 2009 > Western Bulldogs 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogtragic View Post
    So? What can we learn?
    That we didn't learn anything as a club from Hawthorn of 2009.

    We need to plug many of the holes on our list - only area we look ok for is half back.

  13. #41
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    Re: Hawthorn 2009 > Western Bulldogs 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogtragic View Post
    So? What can we learn?
    I don't think I've seen enough positives to even make this comparison. We will be wishing that we will follow their rebound but realistically how likely is it?
    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

  14. #42
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    Re: Hawthorn 2009 > Western Bulldogs 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    I don't think I've seen enough positives to even make this comparison. We will be wishing that we will follow their rebound but realistically how likely is it?

    Agreed - think we need a mini rebuild to become contenders again

  15. #43
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    Re: Hawthorn 2009 > Western Bulldogs 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    I don't think I've seen enough positives to even make this comparison. We will be wishing that we will follow their rebound but realistically how likely is it?
    You don't often talk negatives. What are the list of negatives we need to address?
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

  16. #44
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    Re: Hawthorn 2009 > Western Bulldogs 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    I don't think I've seen enough positives to even make this comparison. We will be wishing that we will follow their rebound but realistically how likely is it?
    I'm sure Hawks supporters also couldn't see any positives at the end of 2009 either.

    If we can fix up our ball movement and delivery into our forward line I think we will improve in 2018.

    Easier said than done.
    More of an In Bruges guy?

  17. #45
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    Re: Hawthorn 2009 > Western Bulldogs 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogtragic View Post
    You don't often talk negatives. What are the list of negatives we need to address?
    I think we are a mile off the side that got 15 wins in the home and away season and then put together a faultless finals series.
    We can stare into the eyes of the coaches and ask if they were demanding enough of players returning from holidays and ask were they happy with what they saw?

    We can ask the hard question of the list managers and see why we started 2017 with a weaker team than what we finished 2016 with?

    We should certainly ask questions around player development plans and were the coaches and fitness staff content with the results let alone question why our skill level is still an issue?

    We know we had injuries and some players dropped off by an alarming rate so it's going to be very interesting to see how seriously the clubs takes an unfulfilling 2017 season. Was it the gap year we had to have or did we just get lucky in 2016? If the answer is yes to either of those options I'll won't be content with that.

    I think it's a lot of wishful thinking to say the difference between last year is comparable to the Hawks
    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

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