AFL Game Day Round 21, 2017 - Western Bulldogs V GWS Giants

[mjp]

So - to (quickly) comment on the TG thing, the umpire dealt with it on Friday night...free kick and report. I don't have any problem with him sticking his foot out (probably would have gone with the knee myself, but potato potAto) but since he has made contact with his head he needs to own that and cop what he cops. To me this incident is not in the same ball-park as the one earlier in the year when he belted Daniel who had just taken a mark, but I think I am in the minority.

We are all talking about our backline being the issue (leaving Roberts out etc) yet the ability of our forwards to convert is the problem? I am pretty baffled by the entire conversation truthfully. At issue here is our team selection - specifically Redpath and Cloke in the same forward line - which put the entire team at risk. When the forward line mix is wrong, it doesn't matter how many times you get the ball in...it is going to come out again. And when it does, the defenders are going to be nude and the opposition WILL SCORE. The 2nd quarter was a show-case in 'how an unbalanced forward line is at the heart of modern football problems'. This game was a replica of our game against Melbourne a month or two back when we dominated possession + i50s but simply COULD NOT SCORE. What have we learned from that night??? Sweet all would be generous. Where do we go now? Well...I am guessing nowhere...which teams inside the top 8 do you think we might actually defeat???

[Doc26]

Who is available? and of the couple that are, are they really worthy of selection?

Our supposed depth is largely sitting in the medical room.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

So - to (quickly) comment on the TG thing, the umpire dealt with it on Friday night...free kick and report. I don't have any problem with him sticking his foot out (probably would have gone with the knee myself, but potato potAto) but since he has made contact with his head he needs to own that and cop what he cops. To me this incident is not in the same ball-park as the one earlier in the year when he belted Daniel who had just taken a mark, but I think I am in the minority.

We are all talking about our backline being the issue (leaving Roberts out etc) yet the ability of our forwards to convert is the problem? I am pretty baffled by the entire conversation truthfully. At issue here is our team selection - specifically Redpath and Cloke in the same forward line - which put the entire team at risk. When the forward line mix is wrong, it doesn't matter how many times you get the ball in...it is going to come out again. And when it does, the defenders are going to be nude and the opposition WILL SCORE. The 2nd quarter was a show-case in 'how an unbalanced forward line is at the heart of modern football problems'. This game was a replica of our game against Melbourne a month or two back when we dominated possession + i50s but simply COULD NOT SCORE. What have we learned from that night??? Sweet all would be generous. Where do we go now? Well...I am guessing nowhere...which teams inside the top 8 do you think we might actually defeat???

I don't disagree with your dissection of our problem MJP. my question, given your background is this.
Surely Bevo and co aren't mugs at this coaching caper, so surely they know this as well. Therefore what compelling tactical outcome did they think would come off that would mitigate the risk?
I'm assuming in selection committee meeting someone pointed out or asked the question 'So where are we risk wise if these two don't clunk it more often than not? How do we stop the ball coming out as quickas it arrives?'

[mjp]

Who is available? and of the couple that are, are they really worthy of selection though?

Our supposed depth is largely sitting in the medical room.

I don't disagree but how can things be worse by throwing 'other' solutions at the problem?

I have sat in enough selection rooms to know it isn't that simple and a lot of the time what you think might be 'nice' to do you know you simply cannot do. I am guessing we are in that position but as soon as I saw we planned playing Cloke, Redpath AND bringing Stringer straight back in after injury I changed my tip to the Giants.

Did anyone actually think we could win the game given the personnel/structure we were sending out onto the field?

[mjp]

Therefore what compelling tactical outcome did they think would come off that would mitigate the risk?

Bevo is clearly a brilliant coach but the selection magic wand he was able to wave during 2015 and 2016 - regularly making 4+ changes, playing inexperienced players in unfamiliar positions etc - has been broken all year.

The only mitigating factor to the Cloke, Redpath, Stringer thing was 'Bontempelli will cause them so much trouble it wont matter' - and that might have just worked IF the midfield could have held things together without him. But Libber and Wally are SADLY out of form - Dahl is permanently out of form! (so is Libber probably) - so when Bont went forward we got smashed around the ball...then the forwards couldn't get the lace out delivery they need to be effective.

Cloke and Redpath are dinosaurs and if they can't (at least) hold down the ruck for 5-7 minutes per q then they can't play. How much better did Geelong look without Hawkins getting in the way vs the Rance/Taylor matchup? They aren't good enough to play in our side at the moment and that is the reality of where we are at. They both seem like ripping blokes but don't look like playing any more than a serviceable game of footy ever.

For people who are going to say 'Playing Cloke and Redpath together worked against Brisbane, so there', well, fair enough, I guess it did (and I actually think Brisbane are 'alright' atm). But it was hardly convincing and adding a clearly out of condition Stringer to the mix was unlikely to make things better.

[Doc26]

I don't disagree but how can things be worse by throwing 'other' solutions at the problem?

I have sat in enough selection rooms to know it isn't that simple and a lot of the time what you think might be 'nice' to do you know you simply cannot do. I am guessing we are in that position but as soon as I saw we planned playing Cloke, Redpath AND bringing Stringer straight back in after injury I changed my tip to the Giants.

Did anyone actually think we could win the game given the personnel/structure we were sending out onto the field?

I don't disagree with you.

I would like to see English come in for our final 2 games at the expense of Redpath but this doesn't address our deplorable entries into the 50 from the likes of our young leaders in Hunter, Macrae and Dahlhaus. They have become so poor at this that they are now gunshy, devoid of confidence, whenever it's their turn to deliver the required disposal.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Bevo is clearly a brilliant coach but the selection magic wand he was able to wave during 2015 and 2016 - regularly making 4+ changes, playing inexperienced players in unfamiliar positions etc - has been broken all year.

The only mitigating factor to the Cloke, Redpath, Stringer thing was 'Bontempelli will cause them so much trouble it wont matter' - and that might have just worked IF the midfield could have held things together without him. But Libber and Wally are SADLY out of form - Dahl is permanently out of form! (so is Libber probably) - so when Bont went forward we got smashed around the ball...then the forwards couldn't get the lace out delivery they need to be effective.

Cloke and Redpath are dinosaurs and if they can't (at least) hold down the ruck for 5-7 minutes per q then they can't play. How much better did Geelong look without Hawkins getting in the way vs the Rance/Taylor matchup? They aren't good enough to play in our side at the moment and that is the reality of where we are at. They both seem like ripping blokes but don't look like playing any more than a serviceable game of footy ever.

For people who are going to say 'Playing Cloke and Redpath together worked against Brisbane, so there', well, fair enough, I guess it did (and I actually think Brisbane are 'alright' atm). But it was hardly convincing and adding a clearly out of condition Stringer to the mix was unlikely to make things better.

A total of 3 goals from Redpath Cloke and Stringer is a strong indication of how poor the forward line functioned. The recruitment of Cloke was always going to be a risk given his poor previous two years at Collingwood. Both Stringer and Liberatore are extremely lucky to be in the team given their poor form this year. When you look at the attacks of Adelaide GWS and the Sydney Swans we simply do not measure up. Dickson is another whose form has dropped off this year. Redpath gives his all but isn't up to the calibre of the key forwards in other teams such as Walker Patton Daniher Roughead Kennedy Riewoldt and Cameron.We are desperate for a quality key forward and this needs to be our number one priority for 2018.

[Sedat]

Here's a vexing question. If Greene gets off he will be pivotal in helping GWS overcome West Coke, which we desperately need in order to keep our finals hopes alive. It is actually a disadvantage to us if Greene cops a week for his Jackie Chan impersonation.

Do we want Greene to get off?

[Topdog]

I thought the addition of Stringer with no game time was a massive risk and it failed big time

[Sedat]

I thought the addition of Stringer with no game time was a massive risk and it failed big time

He'll be better for the run - he needed the hitout in order to get him some valuable match time for the coming weeks. Also there was no VFL game on so there was no option to get some game time at the lower level - probably why we rushed Dunkley into the senior team after only 1 VFL game.

It failed on Friday night but coming in cold against Port might have failed as well.

[mjp]

He'll be better for the run - he needed the hitout in order to get him some valuable match time for the coming weeks. Also there was no VFL game on so there was no option to get some game time at the lower level - probably why we rushed Dunkley into the senior team after only 1 VFL game.

It failed on Friday night but coming in cold against Port might have failed as well.

As a coach said to me once: "You'll be better for the run, but FAAAARRRRRKKKKKK. I mean, I know just getting through the game was the important thing, but...."

[ratsmac]

Here's a vexing question. If Greene gets off he will be pivotal in helping GWS overcome West Coke, which we desperately need in order to keep our finals hopes alive. It is actually a disadvantage to us if Greene cops a week for his Jackie Chan impersonation.

Do we want Greene to get off?

Gee thanks for putting a dampener on me wanting Greene to get 8 weeks

My answer to your question is no because I hate GWS, I hate Greene and us making the finals is probably a stretch anyway.

[josie]

I still think Cloke was ok and has been in most games. Delivery into the 50 - accuracy and speed - has been more the issue for the whole year. Thought he deserved to keep his spot way more than Stringer. Also what has happened to Roughy? Last year he regularly took marks around the ground. This year I am quite shocked when any of our players takes a contested mark. A lot of things to work on in off-season.

[josie]

I too want Thugreene to cop weeks.

[bornadog]

I don't disagree with you.

I would like to see English come in for our final 2 games at the expense of Redpath but this doesn't address our deplorable entries into the 50 from the likes of our young leaders in Hunter, Macrae and Dahlhaus. They have become so poor at this that they are now gunshy, devoid of confidence, whenever it's their turn to deliver the required disposal.

Whilst I agree with MJP that Redpath and Cloke are just ordinary footballers, I also think the ability of our mids you mention are really below par. They may get a lot of the ball, but the delivery to the forwards as well as around the ground are pathetic to say the least. We have known this all year, and there is not much we can do about it, other than get them to practise, practise, practise.