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  1. #1
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    The week off before finals

    I have to take issue with all the complaining going on around this topic.

    This is not about the week off itself. But specifically in regards to it's perceived disadvantage to the top 4 in finals.

    The arguments being thrown around:
    -The season is a war of attrition, therefore the healthiest teams should get the benefit of no bye (this was from Paul Roos and can be immediately dismissed. It's plain rubbish)
    -The top 4 teams lose their advantage. Now by this they actually mean the teams from the top 4 who win in week 1 lose their advantage in prelim week.

    Now noone seems to be arguing against the fact that the week off provides a better spectacle (admittedly we only have last year to go off and it was largely due to the bulldogs' stunning effort). But the main claim is that the top 4 should hold a significant advantage over the bottom 4. Essentially saying teams 5-8 should have next to no chance of winning the flag. This is utter rubbish. The top 4 have always and still have SIGNIFICANT advantages.
    Firstly, they get a double chance! TWO GOES AT IT! No other major sport in the world allows teams in knockout stages to lose and then have another shot at it. Now of course the second chance makes sense because we have a finals system where the top half of teams play against each other. But it's still a fair advantage
    Secondly, the top 2 get home ground advantage throughout the entire finals series. A pretty big advantage if you ask me. The two losing teams from week 1 also get home ground advantage in week 2 (but it's not about the losing teams from week 1 anyway)
    Thirdly, there was always debate around whether the teams that had the week off before the prelims did indeed have an advantage. Were they rusty or well rested?
    Fourth, the season with a 22 game format and playing random 5 teams twice is already unfair. So crying about this is fairly petty IMO.

    I do agree that having a week off, then a week on and then another week off is not ideal. However it shouldn't make THAT much of a difference. If you're good enough you'll get through.

    Of course, we have a sample size of 1 to go off so i think a lot of people are being precious about all of this. I actually think the week off is great. It allows teams to get fit and healthy to give us fans the best spectacle. Having all 8 teams with a realistic chance of winning it all is far better than the boring top 4 only. I still believe the top 4 get enough advantages that outweigh any week off side effects. Team can plan for this an adjust loads accordingly. Unfortunately i feel it will be the scapegoat when Sydney wins the flag from fifth. This, despite the fact they are currently clearly the best team just as we were not a true 7th placed side last year.

    Thoughts?

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  3. #2
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    Re: The week off before finals

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogsthru&thru View Post
    I have to take issue with all the complaining going on around this topic.

    This is not about the week off itself. But specifically in regards to it's perceived disadvantage to the top 4 in finals.

    The arguments being thrown around:
    -The season is a war of attrition, therefore the healthiest teams should get the benefit of no bye (this was from Paul Roos and can be immediately dismissed. It's plain rubbish)
    -The top 4 teams lose their advantage. Now by this they actually mean the teams from the top 4 who win in week 1 lose their advantage in prelim week.

    Now noone seems to be arguing against the fact that the week off provides a better spectacle (admittedly we only have last year to go off and it was largely due to the bulldogs' stunning effort). But the main claim is that the top 4 should hold a significant advantage over the bottom 4. Essentially saying teams 5-8 should have next to no chance of winning the flag. This is utter rubbish. The top 4 have always and still have SIGNIFICANT advantages.
    Firstly, they get a double chance! TWO GOES AT IT! No other major sport in the world allows teams in knockout stages to lose and then have another shot at it. Now of course the second chance makes sense because we have a finals system where the top half of teams play against each other. But it's still a fair advantage
    Secondly, the top 2 get home ground advantage throughout the entire finals series. A pretty big advantage if you ask me. The two losing teams from week 1 also get home ground advantage in week 2 (but it's not about the losing teams from week 1 anyway)
    Thirdly, there was always debate around whether the teams that had the week off before the prelims did indeed have an advantage. Were they rusty or well rested?
    Fourth, the season with a 22 game format and playing random 5 teams twice is already unfair. So crying about this is fairly petty IMO.

    I do agree that having a week off, then a week on and then another week off is not ideal. However it shouldn't make THAT much of a difference. If you're good enough you'll get through.

    Of course, we have a sample size of 1 to go off so i think a lot of people are being precious about all of this. I actually think the week off is great. It allows teams to get fit and healthy to give us fans the best spectacle. Having all 8 teams with a realistic chance of winning it all is far better than the boring top 4 only. I still believe the top 4 get enough advantages that outweigh any week off side effects. Team can plan for this an adjust loads accordingly. Unfortunately i feel it will be the scapegoat when Sydney wins the flag from fifth. This, despite the fact they are currently clearly the best team just as we were not a true 7th placed side last year.

    Thoughts?
    The simple way around having that problem is to not finish top 4. Problem solved, next!

    I do agree to an extent that the top 4 teams are slightly disadvantaged by the week's break but the competition benefited last year with an awesome (I thought it was awesome) finals series. Top 4 teams get a lot of other advantages (home finals for top 2*, double chance) so waiting out a week's break isn't going to be a huge ongoing disadvantage. Teams will come up with a way of counteracting the long break anyway with adjustment to training and more competitive sessions.


    * if you are looking for a disadvantage what about if you are Brisbane and finish 3rd and get a road trip to Perth because the Dockers finished second but you can be Richmond and finish eighth and draw Geekong who finished fifth at the MCG. Sure in that scenario Brisbane have a double chance but even so.
    Have you been reading those Roddy Doyle books again, Dougal!?


    I have, yeah Ted, you big gobshite

  4. #3
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    Re: The week off before finals

    There has been a lot of whinging about this and if the top 4 are meant to be the ones going through, then don't have a top 8 system and just do a top 4. Problem solved.
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

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  6. #4
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    Re: The week off before finals

    Sample size of this is far too small to make any real judgement, though I'll add a few points in support.

    * The week off didn't hurt GWS' performance against us in the 2016 prelim at all. It will go down as a classic

    * Didn't seem to hurt the top team a great deal when we had a top 5

    e.g 1985. Essendon finish 1st, have a week off, pants Hawthorn in the semi, another week off, pants Hawthorn in the GF. Up to the prelim, it's the same gap b/w games as the winner of the 2 QFs in the current setup

    Clarkson et al are overreacting, and the implication that we won last year due to the integrity of the finals series being compromised irks me aplenty
    Float Along - Fill Your Lungs

  7. #5
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    Re: The week off before finals

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pie Man View Post
    Sample size of this is far too small to make any real judgement, though I'll add a few points in support.

    * The week off didn't hurt GWS' performance against us in the 2016 prelim at all. It will go down as a classic

    * Didn't seem to hurt the top team a great deal when we had a top 5

    e.g 1985. Essendon finish 1st, have a week off, pants Hawthorn in the semi, another week off, pants Hawthorn in the GF. Up to the prelim, it's the same gap b/w games as the winner of the 2 QFs in the current setup

    Clarkson et al are overreacting, and the implication that we won last year due to the integrity of the finals series being compromised irks me aplenty
    Agree with this. Sample size is ridiculously small to be carrying on about it. Last year - the top team (Sydney) beat Geelong who they have smashed at Kardinia park in the same way only a handful of weeks prior. And a young GWS side played very well and went down by a goal in a classic, to the eventual premier.

    The bye gives the footy public a better opportunity to have all of the best players available for finals. Shouldn't we be happy that due to the bye, two of the league's best players - Joel Selwood and Rory Sloane - will have the opportunity to get up to play? Aren't the finals better for having those two playing?

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  9. #6
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    Re: The week off before finals

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozza View Post
    Agree with this. Sample size is ridiculously small to be carrying on about it. Last year - the top team (Sydney) beat Geelong who they have smashed at Kardinia park in the same way only a handful of weeks prior. And a young GWS side played very well and went down by a goal in a classic, to the eventual premier.

    The bye gives the footy public a better opportunity to have all of the best players available for finals. Shouldn't we be happy that due to the bye, two of the league's best players - Joel Selwood and Rory Sloane - will have the opportunity to get up to play? Aren't the finals better for having those two playing?
    On this point, Paul Roos is arguing its a war of attrition so advantage GWS. Yes a war of attrition with Sloane and his appendicitis. Give me a break. The whole competition is way better off having Sloane and Selwood available to play.

  10. #7
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    Re: The week off before finals

    The week off before the finals is a great idea. Its the week off after winning week 1 that is problematic because now you have 2 weeks off in a 3 week period. That can never be a good thing and would never have sounded like a good idea to anyone that thought through the consequences of their decisions.

    So what should be scrapped? The week off before finals that ensures all 8 teams are fresh? The week off after week 1? Or do you change the entire top 8 system and get rid of the 2nd chance? so

    a. 1v8
    b. 2v7
    c. 3v6
    d. 4v8

    Week 2 =
    AvC
    BvD

    Winner plays off in GF but then you lose 1 week of money spinning for the AFL.

    YET AGAIN THE AFL MAKES A "RULE" CHANGE WITHOUT THINKING OF THE CONSEQUENCES!

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  12. #8
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    Re: The week off before finals

    Agree with everything posted above. Can also draw from the NFL. The top 2 teams get the first week off, play 2 games and then have another week off before the Super Bowl. It's pretty much the same thing. I think it's a bit of sour grapes, petty argumentation with a splash of boredom and irrelevancy.

  13. #9
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    Re: The week off before finals

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogsthru&thru View Post
    On this point, Paul Roos is arguing its a war of attrition so advantage GWS. Yes a war of attrition with Sloane and his appendicitis. Give me a break. The whole competition is way better off having Sloane and Selwood available to play.

    Just on that, improvement to surgery aside that's a mighty effort to have them out and be up and playing AFL a couple of weeks later. When I had mine out I was on the couch for 3 weeks before I managed to walk up to Francis st (about 500 metres) and back from my parents' house. Took me 48 hours to recover properly. It was 30 years ago I guess.


    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogsthru&thru View Post
    Agree with everything posted above. Can also draw from the NFL. The top 2 teams get the first week off, play 2 games and then have another week off before the Super Bowl. It's pretty much the same thing. I think it's a bit of sour grapes, petty argumentation with a splash of boredom and irrelevancy.
    And newspapers and website space to fill up.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Pie Man View Post
    Sample size of this is far too small to make any real judgement, though I'll add a few points in support.

    * The week off didn't hurt GWS' performance against us in the 2016 prelim at all. It will go down as a classic

    * Didn't seem to hurt the top team a great deal when we had a top 5

    e.g 1985. Essendon finish 1st, have a week off, pants Hawthorn in the semi, another week off, pants Hawthorn in the GF. Up to the prelim, it's the same gap b/w games as the winner of the 2 QFs in the current setup

    Clarkson et al are overreacting, and the implication that we won last year due to the integrity of the finals series being compromised irks me aplenty
    Meh! In years to come that premiership will be looked back on with astonishment. "How did they do that?" Little kids that are yet to be born will look at us in awe and say "wow, you were there?" We've got war stories to tell around the campfire! "And then JJ kicked it 70, no 80 metres to the Bont who out sprinted the entire 18 GWS players on the ground and then baulked around the 4 interchange players on the bench just for good measure before he kicked the goal."
    Have you been reading those Roddy Doyle books again, Dougal!?


    I have, yeah Ted, you big gobshite

  14. #10
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    Re: The week off before finals

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogsthru&thru View Post
    On this point, Paul Roos is arguing its a war of attrition so advantage GWS. Yes a war of attrition with Sloane and his appendicitis. Give me a break. The whole competition is way better off having Sloane and Selwood available to play.
    To be fair, Bevo thinks the same way, and so do many coaches.
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  15. #11
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    Re: The week off before finals

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    To be fair, Bevo thinks the same way, and so do many coaches.
    Ultimately it always comes down to a war of attrition but if some players can get back after a week off i'm all for it.

  16. #12
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    Re: The week off before finals

    Quote Originally Posted by Topdog View Post
    The week off before the finals is a great idea. Its the week off after winning week 1 that is problematic because now you have 2 weeks off in a 3 week period. That can never be a good thing and would never have sounded like a good idea to anyone that thought through the consequences of their decisions.

    So what should be scrapped? The week off before finals that ensures all 8 teams are fresh? The week off after week 1? Or do you change the entire top 8 system and get rid of the 2nd chance? so

    a. 1v8
    b. 2v7
    c. 3v6
    d. 4v8

    Week 2 =
    AvC
    BvD

    Winner plays off in GF but then you lose 1 week of money spinning for the AFL.

    YET AGAIN THE AFL MAKES A "RULE" CHANGE WITHOUT THINKING OF THE CONSEQUENCES!
    1 game in 3 weeks didn't seem to hurt the top team in the 80's when we had a top 5.

    The whining because Geelong just did not show up vs Sydney in last year's prelim is somewhere between boring and annoying...yet of course we want to knee jerk against it like we did with the slide rule.

    Hope the AFL let's this play out for a few more years yet.
    Float Along - Fill Your Lungs

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  18. #13
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    Re: The week off before finals

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pie Man View Post
    Sample size of this is far too small to make any real judgement, though I'll add a few points in support.

    * The week off didn't hurt GWS' performance against us in the 2016 prelim at all. It will go down as a classic

    * Didn't seem to hurt the top team a great deal when we had a top 5

    e.g 1985. Essendon finish 1st, have a week off, pants Hawthorn in the semi, another week off, pants Hawthorn in the GF. Up to the prelim, it's the same gap b/w games as the winner of the 2 QFs in the current setup

    Clarkson et al are overreacting, and the implication that we won last year due to the integrity of the finals series being compromised irks me aplenty
    GWS played out of their skins, as did we.

    Geelong were lucky to survive their QF and were blown out of the water by a far superior team in their prelim.

    The week off was not the cause of their issues.

  19. #14
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    Re: The week off before finals

    Quote Originally Posted by westdog54 View Post
    GWS played out of their skins, as did we.

    Geelong were lucky to survive their QF and were blown out of the water by a far superior team in their prelim.

    The week off was not the cause of their issues.
    Fine. It was the umpiring then

  20. #15
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    Re: The week off before finals

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pie Man View Post
    1 game in 3 weeks didn't seem to hurt the top team in the 80's when we had a top 5.

    The whining because Geelong just did not show up vs Sydney in last year's prelim is somewhere between boring and annoying...yet of course we want to knee jerk against it like we did with the slide rule.

    Hope the AFL let's this play out for a few more years yet.
    It didnt seem to hurt the amateur teams playing against other amateur opposition, no. Professional teams it doesn't sound like a good idea and the complaining about it was around before both teams lost last year.

    Anyway we all know the AFL love to jerk the knee so be prepared for another change

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