The Moving/Rolling Trading & Delisting Thread 2018

[AndrewP6]

We give this guy far too many outs. Agree about being played out of position but what the hell does that have to do with dropping easy marks & missing easy goals from day dot at our club. Yeah he held them for a month in 2016 but other than that he never has.

He drops some marks, sure. But does he get a ton of wide open chances? As I said, I have no doubt the depression that kept him out for a lengthy period is still an issue. The goalkicking is a team wide issue.

[Bullies]

Ok revised list analysis:

Players we keep:
Suckling, Young, Bontempelli, Dunkley, Hunter, Trengove, Wood, Macrae, Cordy, Schache, McLean, Boyd, Richards, Liberatore, Lipinski, Naughton, Williams, Daniel, JJ, English

Players we keep but have question marks over future beyond 2019
Crozier, Adams, Gowers, Porter, Dale,

Players who may not be with us next season
Wallis - Coach doesn't rate him. Surely looks for a fa move.
Dahlhaus - Coach rates him. Is a liability this year. Potentially looks for a fa move but we will get nothing
Roughead - His best is mediocre now. Potentially stays as the depth ruck if he agrees to a cheap enough contract. Surely we aren't rushing to sign him up.
Biggs - Dropped off the face of the earth. If he cant imrpove his form enough to get a spot in a bottom four side then he is easy delist material.
Dickson - Injury prone. Struggles to have much of an impact when playing.
Morris - This is his last year. We have at leas 4 young talls that need to play ahead of him. I love him but its time.
Redpath - Club rates him but he is always injured and borderline best 22 when not.
Jong - Constantly on the verge of being a good player, but instead remains in the Jarrad Grant zone of promising so much but failing to deliver much more than a 6/10 performance.


Players who to this moment have given us no reason to retain them for another year
C. Smith - Always injured and when not just enhances our weaknesses. Has to go.
Campbell - We aren't gonna use him so why keep him.
Roberts - See Campbell, except with abut 10 guys ahead of him.
Webb - Still doesn't have a spot or shown anything at AFL level for years. I think he could still make it but not with us. Honeychurch - I guarantee he is on our list next year, but he is terrible.
Greene - If he can't get a game in a side crying out for clean efficient forwards then he can go.
Collins - Is about 5th or 6th in line in a stacked position.
Lynch - Hasn't got close to being picked in 3 years. Cut him.
R. Smith - Mediocre at best and injury prone.
NMM - Hasn't come close.
Picken - Can't believe we are even trying to get him back. Just retire him for his own sake. There is no gain for anyone trying to get him back in the side.

Thats an incredible 19 players who's immediate future with us could be short term. It's going to be a huge off-season.

Wow. Looking at that list we appear to be well and truly. You can't cull everyone so we will be carrying baggage for years to come. Could be a long road. Agree as well with your analysis.

[S Coast Simon]

Been saying it for years his hands are to flat. He needs to roll them in a little bit. He goes up straight arms and flat hands. This needs to be trained out of his game. Arms a little bent and hands turned in a little. Come on coaches he should be a gun

[Twodogs]

Been saying it for years his hands are to flat. He needs to roll them in a little bit. He goes up straight arms and flat hands. This needs to be trained out of his game. Arms a little bent and hands turned in a little. Come on coaches he should be a gun

Soft hands we called them in cricket. The ball just nestles into them. When you are in the catching zone and it hits the palm of your hand you don't even feel it. Your hand doesn't close around the ball but the ball dissapears into your hand. At the start of training when you have hard hands is when you get all the bruising and sprained fingers.

[Ozza]

Before he came to club Tom was 70% goal accurate (better than Lockett) in TAC, NEAFL/GWS and initially with us when played as a forward. We had a dead eye kick for goal. He didn't start missing on purpose, but under our coaches that figures dropped. Is it more rucking impacting his legs (ie feeling too heavy), bad forward skill coaching. We've coached success out of this aspect of his game. The answer lies beneath Toms current accuracy. The solution lies in reversing this ASAP, not dropping him.

Surely the figures are skewed by being able to mark 15 metres out from goal against opponents 10 cms shorter than him.

There is nothing in Boyd's technique that suggests he would be a reliable kick at goal for the long term.

[Ozza]

Tom's game on the weekend was amongst his worst. But let's face it, he plays poorly most weeks and has only played one excellent game in his career.

To not get a single possession after half time, when most of it was spent rucking, is indefensible.

Even if we are all shouting in agreement, that he should be played forward instead of ruck - putting that aside, he should still be able to do SOMETHING in another position.

Its not everybody else's fault. It is Tom not measuring up. If his name wasn't Tom Boyd, and he wasn't on a million bucks a year - every single person on this forum would be saying that he should be delisted at the end of this season if he doesn't start to show something in the back half of this year.

[bulldogtragic]

Surely the figures are skewed by being able to mark 15 metres out from goal against opponents 10 cms shorter than him.

There is nothing in Boyd's technique that suggests he would be a reliable kick at goal for the long term.

Maybe or maybe not in the TAC, I can't say with certainty, other than his final year was 24.9 playing as a KPF.

2014 at GWS 8.3
2015 at Footscray 12.5
2015 at WBFC 16.6
2016 at Footscray 7.4
2017 at Footscray 8.3

That's 51.21 against tall men when playing as a KPF, not rucking from 2016 onwards. So roughly what he was doing in the last TAC year. So from 2013 as a KPF before moving into the ruck he kicked 75.30 across TAC, NEAFL, VFL & AFL. They're just the stats he has against his name. He seems very, very accurate against kids and men before the ruck move.

[Ozza]

Maybe or maybe not in the TAC, I can't say with certainty, other than his final year was 24.9 playing as a KPF.

2014 at GWS 8.3
2015 at Footscray 12.5
2015 at WBFC 16.6
2016 at Footscray 7.4
2017 at Footscray 8.3

That's 51.21 against tall men when playing as a KPF, not rucking from 2016 onwards. So roughly what he was doing in the last TAC year. So from 2013 as a KPF before moving into the ruck he kicked 75.30 across TAC, NEAFL, VFL & AFL. They're just the stats he has against his name. He seems very, very accurate against kids and men before the ruck move.

Also kicked 13.12 for WB in 2016, and 5.4 this season, which I understand doesn't help your stats - and you mentioned about him rucking as an excuse for missing, but reality is, he is not going to escape having ruck duties and has to deal with it. Because if he doesn't ruck, he doesn't play.

But answer me this - are you confident went Tom marks the ball either 40+ metres out, or on an angle? From 50m, he often shanks them altogether and doesn't score.

Look, there are worse kicks than him, plenty, but apart from when he gets a free within 20m, I'm not calling him a deadeye, not by a long way.

[bulldogtragic]

Also kicked 13.12 for WB in 2016, and 5.4 this season, which I understand doesn't help your stats - and you mentioned about him rucking as an excuse for missing, but reality is, he is not going to escape having ruck duties and has to deal with it. Because if he doesn't ruck, he doesn't play.

But answer me this - are you confident went Tom marks the ball either 40+ metres out, or on an angle? From 50m, he often shanks them altogether and doesn't score.

Look, there are worse kicks than him, plenty, but apart from when he gets a free within 20m, I'm not calling him a deadeye, not by a long way.

I didn't include those numbers not out of convenience, but pointing out that perhaps rucking has impacted this aspect of his game. By highlighting what is was before the move. If we included the numbers you put up then he's still at 69.37 playing against men, including rucking. That's well over 60% accuracy by our combined numbers. I think that's pretty good and I think we should be trying to work out how to get him back to 60+%. He clearly has the capacity to be very accurate, but something is impacting it. I'm generally happy to see the ball in his hand. He's vastly more likely to kick a goal than very many in the team right now, so I'm confident enough with the caveat of his accuracy numbers falling and hoping the club and he can turn it around fast.

[Ozza]

I didn't include those numbers not out of convenience, but pointing out that perhaps rucking has impacted this aspect of his game. By highlighting what is was before the move. If we included the numbers you put up then he's still at 59.27 playing against men, including rucking. That's over 66% accuracy by our combined numbers. I think that's pretty good and I think we should be trying to work out how to get him back to 60+%. He clearly has the capacity to be very accurate, but something is impacting it. I'm generally happy to see the ball in his hand. He's vastly more likely to kick a goal than very many in the team right now, so I'm confident enough with the caveat of his accuracy numbers falling and hoping the club and he can turn it around fast.

Ok, if I agree that he has the capacity to be accurate. How do we solve the problem of him not getting the footy?

I dunno, I've watched this kid with a knot in my stomach for 4 years now, hoping desperately he would show something that would make me feel he isn't a complete bust. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to cop that its everybody else's fault. Tom has to play where is best for the team, the team can't be built around what is best for Tom - so at a minimum, he needs to have some presence and some physicality and a willingness to compete with a ferocity demanded by the level. We've had English in his first season running around getting 15-20 disposals and 20+ hit outs being far less physically ready than Tom.

What Gawn and Grundy were able to do to Tom the last couple of weeks, showed up an embarrassing gulf between elite competitiveness and not. Anyone can attempt to follow up on the ground like Grundy does, or push hard after the stoppage like Gawn does. That stuff is about attitude.

[bulldogtragic]

Ok, if I agree that he has the capacity to be accurate. How do we solve the problem of him not getting the footy?

I dunno, I've watched this kid with a knot in my stomach for 4 years now, hoping desperately he would show something that would make me feel he isn't a complete bust. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to cop that its everybody else's fault. Tom has to play where is best for the team, the team can't be built around what is best for Tom - so at a minimum, he needs to have some presence and some physicality and a willingness to compete with a ferocity demanded by the level. We've had English in his first season running around getting 15-20 disposals and 20+ hit outs being far less physically ready than Tom.

What Gawn and Grundy were able to do to Tom the last couple of weeks, showed up an embarrassing gulf between elite competitiveness and not. Anyone can attempt to follow up on the ground like Grundy does, or push hard after the stoppage like Gawn does. That stuff is about attitude.

This is the issue other posters have raised about gameplan versus the cattle to pull it off. Tom's been smashed the last couple of weeks no doubt, and he's got to go into review meetings and own it like everyone else. These criticisms will no doubt be raised internally.

My position has always been to develop him as a KPF, the role he knows best, with a few minutes in the ruck each quarter to help out English/Roughy. I'd like to see Tom & Schache work on a forward duo synergy together. I'd like to see him get much better inside 50's so we can see what he's truly capable of with the footy in hand. But my view isn't that of the coach. What I think is likely to happen is vicious circle where Tom has to play more ruck, then he probably under performs again as a ruck, gets dropped, earns promotion and it repeats. There's no easy solution as far as I can see right now and I'm not sure where this story progresses or ends at. But I still see a very good player somewhere there, it's just not on display. But I'm happy to believe this right now.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Do any of Hawkins, Kennedy, Franklin, Riewoldt, T. Lynch, McCartin, Waite/Brown, Curnow etc. spend more than 5 minutes in the ruck?

Not saying Boyd is a proven forward (McCartin isn't either) but we've never given him an opportunity to actually develop as a forward. We've only given him time to 'rest' as a forward.

Is Boyd as good as we hoped? Nope, but we haven't helped him either.

Our coaching group is too clever for themselves. It's not like Boyd is providing us with such great value as a ruck that we're hurting ourselves by playing him forward.

Then again, we can't even fix our goal kicking in 3+ years so even if we did play Boyd forward my faith that we could even develop him as one is low.

I'm praying we clean out our coaching group and get back to basics instead of turning a blue chip young key forward into a ruckman and two AA defenders into forwards (JJ/Wood).

[Sedat]

Do any of Hawkins, Kennedy, Franklin, Riewoldt, T. Lynch, McCartin, Waite/Brown, Curnow etc. spend more than 5 minutes in the ruck?

Not saying Boyd is a proven forward (McCartin isn't either) but we've never given him an opportunity to actually develop as a forward. We've only given him time to 'rest' as a forward.

Is Boyd as good as we hoped? Nope, but we haven't helped him either.

Our coaching group is too clever for themselves. It's not like Boyd is providing us with such great value as a ruck that we're hurting ourselves by playing him forward.

He has never had a sustained run as key forward in his time with us - I hope he gets the chance to do so for the remainder of the season (if his form warrants it). We have Rough, Campbell, English (when he returns from injury) and even Trengove who can do the grunt work as #1 ruck - I fail to see the harm in giving Boyd and Schache some continuity in the key forward posts for the remainder of the season.

[Ozza]

He has never had a sustained run as key forward in his time with us - I hope he gets the chance to do so for the remainder of the season (if his form warrants it). We have Rough, Campbell, English (when he returns from injury) and even Trengove who can do the grunt work as #1 ruck - I fail to see the harm in giving Boyd and Schache some continuity in the key forward posts for the remainder of the season.

Yes, I would agree with this. I'm all for giving it a go.

Doubt it will happen, as forward pressure seems to be a higher priority than forward targets nowadays.

[Sedat]

Yes, I would agree with this. I'm all for giving it a go.

Doubt it will happen, as forward pressure seems to be a higher priority than forward targets nowadays.

Most teams are running with 2 tall forwards, and 4 smaller forwards to provide the defensive heat

North - Brown/Waite
Carlton - Casboult/Curnow (McKay and Kerr in recent weeks)
Adelaide - Jenkins/Walker (when fit)
Melbourne - McDonald/Hogan
Brisbane - McStay/Hipwood (McInernay in there most weeks as well)
Geelong - Hawkins/Esava (before injury)
West Coke - Kennedy/Darling (plus Waterman for good measure)
Essendon - Hooker/Daniher (McKernan and Stewart at times as well)
Richmond have Caddy playing tall alongside Riewoldt

Boyd staying close to home as the bail-out option and Schache as the connector between the arcs is well worth persisting with, so long as the support cast work much harder at locking the ball in - our smaller forwards have been awful in this area the last 18 months when they were competition elite in 2015/16. Forward pressure was one of our great assets that has fallen away dramatically since 2016, in stark contrast to most of the rest of the competition.