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  1. #76
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    Re: List Analysis - August 2018

    With all due respect, we need to cut Honeychurch - would be negligent to keep him another year.

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  3. #77
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    Re: List Analysis - August 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bulldogs Bite View Post
    With all due respect, we need to cut Honeychurch - would be negligent to keep him another year.
    I agree, it's not a slight on the player because I'm sure he is a hard worker but we have given him enough of a chance and need to try and unearth a player. Perhaps there will be a delisting at another club that will suit us
    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

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  5. #78
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    Re: List Analysis - August 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    I agree, it's not a slight on the player because I'm sure he is a hard worker but we have given him enough of a chance and need to try and unearth a player. Perhaps there will be a delisting at another club that will suit us
    Could be Hayes for Honeychurch.
    Bring back the biff

  6. #79
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    Re: List Analysis - August 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by ledge View Post
    Could be Hayes for Honeychurch.
    My big two are Cavarra & Hayes. I'd also like Gibbons but I think he might be a touch too short to play predominately inside mid at AFL level. The other two at least either have a strong forward craft or play more on the outside.

  7. #80
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    Re: List Analysis - August 2018

    I agree. Honey has had enough time to prove his worth and unfortunately he just hasn’t made it. We’re better of giving an unknown a chance to shine.

    Would love to get Cavarra

  8. #81
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    Re: List Analysis - August 2018

    Power said the Campbell is on the list. Wasn't a positive endorsement. Would we risk losing Campbell to another team by delisting him, and rookie listing him?

    The upshot is another spot on draft night to get a Cavarra or Hayes with a pick near the 60's. With 7 & 32-35 on live picks plus West & Khamis it looks like the four spots are taken up here. If we want another spot, the obvious option looks like Campbell to the rookie list and if we miss him, then going after a Zac Clarke in the rookie draft (whose not worse than Campbell).

    Small risk, medium reward.

    Risk vs Reward
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

  9. #82
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    Re: List Analysis - August 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogsthru&thru View Post
    There has been a lot of discussion on WOOF regarding the state of our list. Some on here are optimistic, others not so much so i thought it'd be worthwhile to discuss where we see our list sits given performance to date.

    Of course this is very subjective, but i have given my breakdown below. The categories are:

    A graders = This player is elite
    Rate = I rate this player either currently of with a view to the future
    Don't rate = I either never rated this player or don't rate them going forward
    Jury's still out = Can be one of two things. Either haven't seen enough of them to know one way or the other OR they are a player who has previously played at a high level but is no longer playing to that level for unknown reasons and the jury is still out as to whether they will recapture that form. A good comparison is Biggs and Dahlhaus. I put Biggs in the don't rate category as i don't see him getting back to 2016 form and he didn't have enough runs on the board to suggest he's capable of finding form. Dahl on the other hand has played at a higher level for longer so i see him as someone who could eventually recapture that form.
    Finished = Has either retired or don't see them getting back on the park or to potential due to injury

    A Graders
    Marcus Bontempelli
    Jack Macrae

    Rate
    Aaron Naughton
    Bailey Williams
    Billy Gowers
    Caleb Daniel
    Dale Morris
    Easton Wood
    Ed Richards
    Hayden Crozier
    Josh Dunkley
    Josh Schache
    Lachie Hunter
    Liam Picken
    Matthew Suckling
    Mitch Wallis
    Patrick Lipinski
    Tim English
    Toby McLean
    Zaine Cordy
    Jason Johannisen

    Don't rate
    Fletcher Roberts
    Jordan Roughead
    Kieran Collins
    Lin Jong
    Lukas Webb
    Mitch Honeychurch
    Nathan Mullenger-McHugh
    Roarke Smith
    Shane Biggs
    Tom Campbell

    Jury's still out
    Bailey Dale
    Brad Lynch
    Callum Porter
    Fergus Greene
    Lewis Young
    Luke Dahlhaus
    Marcus Adams
    Tom Boyd
    Tom Liberatore
    Jackson Trengove

    Finished
    Clay Smith
    Jack Redpath
    Tory Dickson

    So out of 44 players, I:

    Rate: 21
    Don't Rate: 10
    Jury's still out: 10
    Finished: 3

    So i am happy with 45% of our list. Questions marks remain over 23% of our list and i don't rate a quarter of our list. Interestingly of the players i don't rate, half of them are talls.

    I'm bullish of our younger players but we clearly have a lot of players who are potential A graders but have question marks over their future. I think the list is in decent shape and can be turned around pretty quickly....provided the players can actually stay on the park. But it's not as bleak as some make out.
    Updated OP after Campbell and Honey delistings.

    So we cut the Don't Rate category from 10 to 4 and the Jury's still out from 10 to 8. That's a decent turnover.

    So going back to our rock bottom point after our loss to Port Adelaide in Ballarat. This led to quite a bit of discussion on the state of our list and our lack of depth and talent. I don't think it's as bad as our performances suggested. Looking at our list now, there are really only 4 players who aren't really rated (again this is subjective) and another 8 who need to prove us their worth. I think that's a solid position to be in. Granted a lot of the players we rate still have room for improvement, but 2019 hopefully is an encouraging year.

    Let's hope in 2019 we don't add to that group of players where the jury is still out. In fact, i hope we can reclassify some into the Rate category. I'm looking particularly at Lynch, Dale and Trengove but mostly Boyd and especially Libba.

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  11. #83
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    Re: List Analysis - August 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogsthru&thru View Post
    Updated OP after Campbell and Honey delistings.

    So we cut the Don't Rate category from 10 to 4 and the Jury's still out from 10 to 8. That's a decent turnover.

    So going back to our rock bottom point after our loss to Port Adelaide in Ballarat. This led to quite a bit of discussion on the state of our list and our lack of depth and talent. I don't think it's as bad as our performances suggested. Looking at our list now, there are really only 4 players who aren't really rated (again this is subjective) and another 8 who need to prove us their worth. I think that's a solid position to be in. Granted a lot of the players we rate still have room for improvement, but 2019 hopefully is an encouraging year.

    Let's hope in 2019 we don't add to that group of players where the jury is still out. In fact, i hope we can reclassify some into the Rate category. I'm looking particularly at Lynch, Dale and Trengove but mostly Boyd and especially Libba.
    Would be great to have Libba, Trengove, Boyd and Dale all playing good consistent footy next year.

  12. #84
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    Re: List Analysis - August 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogsthru&thru View Post
    Let's hope in 2019 we don't add to that group of players where the jury is still out. In fact, i hope we can reclassify some into the Rate category. I'm looking particularly at Lynch, Dale and Trengove but mostly Boyd and especially Libba.
    I’d have Libba as elite. He was comfortably our 2nd best player 2 years ago. I think people forget how amazing his vision is in the clinches, how great his hands are in traffic and how good his general decision making is (on the ground at least).
    "Look at me mate. Look at me. I'm flyin'"

  13. #85
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    Re: List Analysis - August 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by Sedat View Post
    I’d have Libba as elite. He was comfortably our 2nd best player 2 years ago. I think people forget how amazing his vision is in the clinches, how great his hands are in traffic and how good his general decision making is (on the ground at least).
    For sure we know he's got elite ability. But this assessment was more based on performance over a recent period of extended time rather than their career as a whole. And Libba's 2017 as a whole was very underwhelming. To the point where he needs to prove he can re-establish that pre-2017 form in order to stay on any clubs list.

    I suppose this list was born out of our unique problem post 2016 where we had so many players we all know have great talent but were severely under performing. Some for 2 years and to the point where we were wondering if they'd ever rediscover a remote semblance of their former self.

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  15. #86
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    Re: List Analysis - August 2018

    One thing that tended to irritate me last year was the excuses many came up with to explain our poor form last year.
    Week after week it was the age and games played profile that was offered up to explain our losses.
    Now there is some merit in that but I think it's typically more about effort and talent more than age and experience which was the focus

    Anyway Champion Data have analysed the lists of all clubs and we are rated 11th in games played and our age profile. Perhaps we could have looked to improve that during the drafts and trade periods but I think our focus was more on bringing in talent and good attitudes.

    Surprisingly we are rated 15th as a playing list but substantially ahead of 16th placed Carlton.
    By position we are rated 8th in defence, 15th in the forward line and 7th as a midfield

    Clearly there is plenty of work to do but I think our list is a bit better than CD has rated it.
    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

  16. #87
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    Re: List Analysis - August 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    One thing that tended to irritate me last year was the excuses many came up with to explain our poor form last year.
    Week after week it was the age and games played profile that was offered up to explain our losses.
    Now there is some merit in that but I think it's typically more about effort and talent more than age and experience which was the focus

    Anyway Champion Data have analysed the lists of all clubs and we are rated 11th in games played and our age profile. Perhaps we could have looked to improve that during the drafts and trade periods but I think our focus was more on bringing in talent and good attitudes.

    Surprisingly we are rated 15th as a playing list but substantially ahead of 16th placed Carlton.
    By position we are rated 8th in defence, 15th in the forward line and 7th as a midfield

    Clearly there is plenty of work to do but I think our list is a bit better than CD has rated it.
    I wonder what CD rated us in 2016? I agree that effort beats experience in most situations. Give me a Naughton or Richards busting their guts over Dahl & Stringer cruising. I think Cavarra & Hayes will be certainly bringing that to the side, but not in the CD data.
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

  17. #88
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    Re: List Analysis - August 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    One thing that tended to irritate me last year was the excuses many came up with to explain our poor form last year.
    Week after week it was the age and games played profile that was offered up to explain our losses.
    Now there is some merit in that but I think it's typically more about effort and talent more than age and experience which was the focus

    Anyway Champion Data have analysed the lists of all clubs and we are rated 11th in games played and our age profile. Perhaps we could have looked to improve that during the drafts and trade periods but I think our focus was more on bringing in talent and good attitudes.

    Surprisingly we are rated 15th as a playing list but substantially ahead of 16th placed Carlton.
    By position we are rated 8th in defence, 15th in the forward line and 7th as a midfield

    Clearly there is plenty of work to do but I think our list is a bit better than CD has rated it.
    I did see that ranking and was quite surprised by our low overall ranking. Although I have no idea on what the ranking is actually based on, I still think it’s inaccurate to measure potential success on pure stats.

    I think we’ve done a pretty good job or purging those players that weren’t up to it and also those that weren’t putting in the hard yards. I agree it looks like our focus this offseason has been to recruit players with excellent work rate. At the end of the day, it was that work rate that won us the flag so hopefully we take steps in the right direction and by August 2019 our outlook on our list is looking much rosier

  18. #89
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    Re: List Analysis - August 2018

    CD can only tell you about the past. Based on the last two years I'm not surprised our forward line is so poorly rated. That doesn't mean we can't improve this year

  19. #90
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    Re: List Analysis - August 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    One thing that tended to irritate me last year was the excuses many came up with to explain our poor form last year.
    Week after week it was the age and games played profile that was offered up to explain our losses.
    Now there is some merit in that but I think it's typically more about effort and talent more than age and experience which was the focus

    Anyway Champion Data have analysed the lists of all clubs and we are rated 11th in games played and our age profile. Perhaps we could have looked to improve that during the drafts and trade periods but I think our focus was more on bringing in talent and good attitudes.

    Surprisingly we are rated 15th as a playing list but substantially ahead of 16th placed Carlton.
    By position we are rated 8th in defence, 15th in the forward line and 7th as a midfield

    Clearly there is plenty of work to do but I think our list is a bit better than CD has rated it.
    There's something wrong with the data I believe ...
    West Coast Eagles as reigning Premiers rated :-
    5th Age
    8th Games played
    4th Finals played
    5th Defence
    8th Forward line
    15th Midfield

    11th overall

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