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  1. #16
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    Re: Season Preview: Eight Reasons Why The Bulldogs Can Get Excited in 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    I have watched pretty much every game Tom Boyd has ever played.

    Boyd in the RUCK >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Boyd as a forward.

    Of course, the argument is going to come back 'If he would just leave him there...'.

    Well, if he would just leave him there then what? He hasn't played well as a forward at AFL level. He doesn't lead hard enough - sure as certain doesn't hit the logos - and drops too many marks.

    I think Bevo has played Boyd in absolutely the right position...the problem has been he is injured/unavailable ALL THE TIME so hasn't gotten any continuity (hence confidence) with his footy.
    I have to disagree on this. In my opinion we haven't really given him enough of a chance to establish himself as a forward. If he is fit and with the very likely scenario that English and Trengove will be the preferred ruckman I'm hoping that Boyd spend the majority of his time up forward. If that doesn't work then fine I'll concede he has to become a ruckman but lets give him that chance.
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  3. #17
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    Re: Season Preview: Eight Reasons Why The Bulldogs Can Get Excited in 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    If that doesn't work then fine I'll concede he has to become a ruckman but lets give him that chance.
    ...and I get this point. BUT. When I get told that Bevo puts players in the wrong positions and Boyd is cited as an example, well, that's just not right.

    Whilst leaving Boyd in the forward line for LONGER might 'give him a chance' (as you noted) to prove himself in that role, on ALL AVAILABLE EVIDENCE he is an AFL ruckman and not an AFL forward.

    Whether the coach should have been playing him forward to 'give him a chance' - particularly given his inconsistent form and well publicised mental health battles - is a matter for debate of course but I can almost guarantee that if I had a player at my disposal who was battling with consistency and had reported issues with mental health to the club, I would play him in the role where he had the most history of success (aka in the ruck).

    Maybe the "right thing" for the coach to do is play Boyd at FF and leave him there. But to use this as an example of Bevo playing guys out of position is just not fair.

    I will say the same thing for the JJ example. I have a long held view that moving elite hbf's to the midfield is fools gold 'cos you weaken yourself in two positions, but the position he plays has ZERO to do with his ability to fight through negative tactics by opponents...
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  4. #18
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    Re: Season Preview: Eight Reasons Why The Bulldogs Can Get Excited in 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    I have watched pretty much every game Tom Boyd has ever played.

    Boyd in the RUCK >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Boyd as a forward.

    Of course, the argument is going to come back 'If he would just leave him there...'.

    Well, if he would just leave him there then what? He hasn't played well as a forward at AFL level. He doesn't lead hard enough - sure as certain doesn't hit the logos - and drops too many marks.

    I think Bevo has played Boyd in absolutely the right position...the problem has been he is injured/unavailable ALL THE TIME so hasn't gotten any continuity (hence confidence) with his footy.
    This x1000.
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  5. #19
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    Re: Season Preview: Eight Reasons Why The Bulldogs Can Get Excited in 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post

    Whilst leaving Boyd in the forward line for LONGER might 'give him a chance' (as you noted) to prove himself in that role, on ALL AVAILABLE EVIDENCE he is an AFL ruckman and not an AFL forward.

    Whether the coach should have been playing him forward to 'give him a chance' - particularly given his inconsistent form and well publicised mental health battles - is a matter for debate of course but I can almost guarantee that if I had a player at my disposal who was battling with consistency and had reported issues with mental health to the club, I would play him in the role where he had the most history of success (aka in the ruck).

    Maybe the "right thing" for the coach to do is play Boyd at FF and leave him there. But to use this as an example of Bevo playing guys out of position is just not fair..
    Is he an AFL ruckman though? He's decent at it but as much as you don't see him as a forward I dont see him becoming a top flight ruckman. He's competitive but nothing special. We gave up on him as a key forward way too early in his career after trading for him as a key forward and paying him to be that. The Cats didn't give up on Hawkins as a key forward as quickly as Bevo did with Boyd.
    We've stuffed around with part timers because we've typically not had enough depth at the position so I hope we give both Boyd and Schache the chace to become key fowards for us more than having them spend the majority of time in tbe ruck.
    Tough times don't last, tough people do

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    Re: Season Preview: Eight Reasons Why The Bulldogs Can Get Excited in 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    I have watched pretty much every game Tom Boyd has ever played.

    Boyd in the RUCK >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Boyd as a forward.

    Of course, the argument is going to come back 'If he would just leave him there...'.

    Well, if he would just leave him there then what? He hasn't played well as a forward at AFL level. He doesn't lead hard enough - sure as certain doesn't hit the logos - and drops too many marks.

    I think Bevo has played Boyd in absolutely the right position...the problem has been he is injured/unavailable ALL THE TIME so hasn't gotten any continuity (hence confidence) with his footy.
    Will the new rules help or hinder his ability to play forward?

    The comment I have heard repeated is that forwards at TAC cup level that dominate sometimes donít come on because when they hit AFL everything is zoned and they end up getting double teamed etc. (as opposed to the more open TAC cup model). Iíd like to hope that it will, at times, open the forwardline up more and allow the forwards an opportunity to lead up more often.

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    Re: Season Preview: Eight Reasons Why The Bulldogs Can Get Excited in 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    Is he an AFL ruckman though? He's decent at it but as much as you don't see him as a forward I dont see him becoming a top flight ruckman.
    No - that's not it. I don't NOT see him as a forward...all I am saying is that Boyd is continually 'held up' as the example when people talk about Bevo playing people in the 'wrong' positions. And his best game as a ruckman (2016 GF) is SO FAR above his best game as a forward it isn't funny.

    Whether you believe he could be/should be more effective as a forward than he is as a ruckman if he was only given the chance is neither here nor there...
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    Re: Season Preview: Eight Reasons Why The Bulldogs Can Get Excited in 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    Is he an AFL ruckman though? He's decent at it but as much as you don't see him as a forward I dont see him becoming a top flight ruckman. He's competitive but nothing special. We gave up on him as a key forward way too early in his career after trading for him as a key forward and paying him to be that. The Cats didn't give up on Hawkins as a key forward as quickly as Bevo did with Boyd.
    We've stuffed around with part timers because we've typically not had enough depth at the position so I hope we give both Boyd and Schache the chace to become key fowards for us more than having them spend the majority of time in tbe ruck.
    I know this is harsh but IMHO Boyd isn't really an AFL level ruckman, it's just he's a better ruckman than he is a key forward.
    Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

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  11. #23
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    Re: Season Preview: Eight Reasons Why The Bulldogs Can Get Excited in 2019

    It's an interesting discussion surrounding Boyd, each perspective presented has merit depending on how you view him as a player.

    I'm probably in the camp that suggests he'll become the rarest of players - the second ruck who can give you 5-8 minutes a quarter, but who can also be relied upon to hit the scoreboard every game.

    How we get him there is up for debate. I think partially out of necessity we've played him in the ruck, but I also think the coach believes this is the best way to develop his fitness, resilience and confidence. I agree that we need to give him time forward to ensure he develops his forward craft, but without continuity in physical and mental health doing so to date in all likelihood would have hampered his development further - not least because we have been moving the ball so poorly these past couple of seasons.

    If we can get him fit, keep him fit, and benefit from plenty of good form and rucking hours from both English and Trengove, I think Boyd will get sufficient time forward with better supply, and start to develop into the second ruck I think he can be.
    Last edited by jeemak; 05-01-2019 at 08:33 PM. Reason: English didn't good.

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  13. #24
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    Re: Season Preview: Eight Reasons Why The Bulldogs Can Get Excited in 2019

    One of the problems Tom has is that he is not a dominant forward yet and, as such, doesn't get the dominant forward umpiring treatment.

    I am sure we have all seen the farcically blatant wy he gets manhandled, blocked, held back/down, pushed under the ball, chopped, etc. in almost every contest he makes and mostly it goes unnoticed.

    It is a hindrance that (probably) most developing forwards go through on their way to becoming a Riewoldt or a Franklin (where the umpire now seems to expect that you are going to be impeded and will jump at shadows in your favour) and he will have to work through it. But how do you work through it and develop if you aren't getting minutes and only get the odd contest?

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  15. #25
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    Re: Season Preview: Eight Reasons Why The Bulldogs Can Get Excited in 2019

    FWIW, keep an eye on Sweet.

    Plays the same role as Boyd and from all reports, isn't going die wondering being just a rookie/VFL player.

    Best of all, he likes cracking heads.
    HEIGHT IS OVERRATED: CALEB DANIEL > TOM BOYD

  16. #26
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    Re: Season Preview: Eight Reasons Why The Bulldogs Can Get Excited in 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    No - that's not it. I don't NOT see him as a forward...all I am saying is that Boyd is continually 'held up' as the example when people talk about Bevo playing people in the 'wrong' positions. And his best game as a ruckman (2016 GF) is SO FAR above his best game as a forward it isn't funny.

    Whether you believe he could be/should be more effective as a forward than he is as a ruckman if he was only given the chance is neither here nor there...
    So you think it's the move of Boyd into the ruck that has been the catalyst for Bevo being seen as the nutty professor with regards to him playing the players out of position?

    Lets have a look at some recent arrivals.

    Trengove trains as a foward and to rotate into the ruck and yet spends a fair chunk of the season as a key defender before returning to that role. Good reasons for that to happen though.

    Crozier mainly plays as a forward for Fremantle , eventually settles in very well with us as a skillful defender.

    Lynch mainly plays in the VFL as a defender and when he gets a bit of an extended run at it in the seniors its as a half foward.

    Naughton, Richards, JJ , Wood and Adams were all tried forward despite all of them seeing themselves as defenders.

    I think I was one of a small group that wasn't critical of him for making those moves because in the main it was forced on him due to having an imbalanced list. I do not get his views on the ruck though because having the likes of Jong, Dunkley and Bontempelli taking a turn in the ruck just doesn't gel with me.

    Outside of the ruck rotations I think Bevo does a good job at shuffling players around as coaches of struggling teams need to do as they search for the winning formula. I think its more out of frustration after a loss that Bevo cops some criticism for playing the players in new roles and while I agree that Boyd so frequently in tbe ruck is the obvious call out the reasons why I challenge that move is more about giving Boyd a chance to become a good forward more than the move itself.

    Bevo talked up the need for players to be versatile and if you look at nearly all the the players we recently recruited the common theme made by Power was the versatility nearly each of the of players offered. We traded for Duryea who mainly recently played foward for the Hawks and we see him as a defender. Lloyd is a forward but of course we also see him rotating through the midfield. All the draftees offer us something in multiple positions.

    The Bevo mantra of versatility is something very ingrained at the club and it doesn't just stop with Tom Boyd.
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  17. #27
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    Re: Season Preview: Eight Reasons Why The Bulldogs Can Get Excited in 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    I have to disagree on this. In my opinion we haven't really given him enough of a chance to establish himself as a forward. If he is fit and with the very likely scenario that English and Trengove will be the preferred ruckman I'm hoping that Boyd spend the majority of his time up forward. If that doesn't work then fine I'll concede he has to become a ruckman but lets give him that chance.
    With English and Trengove playing ruck and spending time forward, Schache plays the higher marking forward role and Boyd is in the VFL. We just can't play all four.
    Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers

  18. #28
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    Re: Season Preview: Eight Reasons Why The Bulldogs Can Get Excited in 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by The Adelaide Connection View Post
    Will the new rules help or hinder his ability to play forward?

    The comment I have heard repeated is that forwards at TAC cup level that dominate sometimes don’t come on because when they hit AFL everything is zoned and they end up getting double teamed etc. (as opposed to the more open TAC cup model). I’d like to hope that it will, at times, open the forwardline up more and allow the forwards an opportunity to lead up more often.
    That may well help Schache and hinder Boyd. Schache looks a natural leading forward who struggles with congestion. Boyd just doesn't cover the required ground as a KPF and even if his contested marking was good enough (it isn't) the reality is 'elite' contested marking players in the AFL these days are overwhelmingly defenders taking 2-3 per game. The pack-marking forwards have largely been consigned to history in lieu of forward systems where movement is required by all six players to try and free up one forward to mark on the lead.
    Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers

  19. #29
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    Re: Season Preview: Eight Reasons Why The Bulldogs Can Get Excited in 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Mofra View Post
    With English and Trengove playing ruck and spending time forward, Schache plays the higher marking forward role and Boyd is in the VFL. We just can't play all four.
    Wasn't that roughly the plan last year to have Boyd, Schache and Wood as the 3 marking forwards with Roughead or English iin the ruck?
    Given Trengove's versatility and ability to play in the back half I think all 4 'could' play but I get your point.
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    Re: Season Preview: Eight Reasons Why The Bulldogs Can Get Excited in 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    Trengove trains as a foward and to rotate into the ruck and yet spends a fair chunk of the season as a key defender before returning to that role. Good reasons for that to happen though.

    Crozier mainly plays as a forward for Fremantle , eventually settles in very well with us as a skillful defender.

    Lynch mainly plays in thd VFL as a defender and when he gets a bit of an extended run at it in the seniors its as a half foward.

    Naughton, Richards, JJ , Wood and Adams were all tried forward despite all of them seeing themselves as defenders.
    I guess my comment would be "that's more like it". What I have been saying is the whole 'Bevo plays guys out of position' thing has been done to death...tell me WHO YOU MEAN (and it better not be Boyd)!

    The guys you have referenced above:

    1/. Trengove. Always played his best footy as a ruckman (which I commented on A LOT when we recruited him) and was always going to be happiest in this role. Trying to get a 27yo who has NEVER been an effective forward to play as a key forward seemed pretty dumb to me...happy to say that playing him as anything other than a ruckman doesn't make any sense to me ALTHOUGH he has been 'OK' as a key defender in the past...

    The whole Tregove in the ruck issue I am sure had me saying mid-season that we had a whole heap of guys happiest/playing their best footy in the ruck (Boyd, Rough, Trengove, English, Campbell etc) but only one REAL position for them...yet they were all nominally in our 'best' 22.

    2/. Crozier played his BEST footy for Freo at the back end of 2017 as a half back. Playing him anywhere else seemed crazy to me as Freo had spent countless hours/coaching $ trying to make him (a first round draft pick I think) into an outside mid/high half forward without success...so playing him back was playing him in his best spot...as Bulldogs supporters, none of us knew this 'cos we never watched Freo play and only remembered that back in his 18's days he was a forward. I live in Perth and have Freo rammed down my neck which is how I knew he was playing good footy in the back half.

    3/. Lynch started at AFL level in the backline. The club needed to make a decision on him for 2019 and beyond so seeing if he could fill multiple roles made complete sense...no issue with throwing him around after he had played a few games back and shown he wasn't a completely hopeless case.

    4/. Wood should NEVER had been moved forward. This was a really flawed idea. BUT. Once he was moved down there, to abandon a pre-season of planning after a couple of games seemed equally flawed (but I guess at times there is such a thing as sunk cost and you just need to move on).

    5/. JJ and Richards should be able to to roll between half forward, wing and half back - with occasional stints inside the game - if they are any good at all. The JJ stuff is frustrating to me but more about JJ than about Bevo. He just needs to play better and have a little bit more 'strength' about his match day persona.

    6/. I never understood the move of Naughton - a first year player doing his best to make his way should have just been left in the role where he was most comfortable. I think it WAS correct to try Adams at the other end though...what did we had to lose? This is exactly what you do with 25 year old mature agers...you chuck different challenges at them and see if they are REALLY worth persisting with or if they are ultimately limited players who you are better off finding replacements for. It was obvious after 2 weeks that Naughton was a better player than Adams...why not see if Adams has the ability to play forward and would therefore be a valuable swingman in the future rather than leaving him to play CHB for Footscray?

    What else? Bevo likes versatility - but I think he harps on this so often to take away the excuses that players in struggling teams so often use...ultimately, players play and coaches coach. Wherever they are put on the whiteboard (and do positions even exist in 2019) the PLAYERS need to take responsibility for establishing strong, positive starting points and beating their opposition number to the contest...footy hasn't changed in that sense. Further, whether they start at half-forward or half back doesn't impact on any decisions they make/skill execution with the ball in hand...
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