Western Bulldogs Devoid of Stars

[GVGjr]

A week or so before our Grand Final Victory Nathan Burke said the Bulldogs would never have a dynasty because they were devoid of star players.

I remember being very dismissive of the article but looking back after two very lean years since the grand final is it time to acknowledge that he was right?

It also begs some questions:
Why did we drop off the cliff after the win?
What could we and what should we have done differently after the Grand Final?
Did we get ahead of ourselves?
Did we fluke the win?
Did we just overachieve?
Did we not have that strong of a list?

I've read a lot of articles that have tried to explain why we slipped back so far but I'm still not close to certain of why we fell away.

I'd be very interested to read why you think we fell backwards so quickly? and if you think the article was accurate?

Below is the article by Burke

ST KILDA great Nathan Burke has dismissed the Western Bulldogs chances of an AFL dynasty, saying the club is devoid of stars and marquee players.

The former Saints captain tipped the Bulldogs to reach this year’s Grand Final but didn’t believe the club was set up for sustained success.

Burke said the club’s historic lack of finals success pointed to another narrow premiership window.

“You look at GWS and you say, look, there’s going to be a dynasty there for four or five years,” he said.

“The history of the Western Bulldogs Football Club tells me that they don’t have dynasties.

“It’s been the longest drought of any team making a Grand Final in the history of the game, they’ve got to seven preliminary finals and haven’t got to the Grand Final and then they’ve gone backwards.

“The history of the club tell me ... they don’t stay up for four, five, six, ten years in a row.

Preliminary finals haven’t been kind to the club, losing in 1985, 1992, 1997, 1998, 2008, 2009 and 2010, last making the Grand Final in 1961 when they lost to Hawthorn.

The Bulldogs had three players in the AFL Players’ Association 22Under22 team this season, including captain Marcus Bontempelli, Jake Stringer and Lachie Hunter while Caleb Daniel and Jack Macrae were in the 50-man squad.

Stringer was captain of the 2015 team before being named All-Australian for the first time while Bontempelli is among this year’s Brownlow Medal favourites and Daniel finished runner-up in the AFL Rising Star Award.

The Dogs have also had 10 Rising Star nominations since 2012 with nine still on the list; Mitch Wallis (2012), Macrae (2013), Bontempelli, Stringer, Nathan Hrovat (2014), Mitch Honeychurch, Tom Boyd (2014), Daniel and Josh Dunkley (2015).

However, Burke was adamant the Bulldogs didn’t have the star power to become an AFL power.

“I know it’s a young list. It’s a list a little bit devoid of stars and marquee players who can carry them through for long periods of time like we’ve seen Hawthorn have,” he said on Fox Sports News.


“They’ve (Hawthorn) got their four or five outright stars, the Bulldogs don’t have that, they are just playing very well as a team.

“For me, to have that dynasty you need four or five stars to build around.”

St Kilda has suffered a similar finals and premiership drought since its sole flag in 1966, losing Grand Finals in 1971, 1997, 2009 and 2010 and winning nine wooden spoons.

[FrediKanoute]

Nathan's article was less about lack of star players and more a critique of our club's history which is marginally better than St.Kilda's.

Yes he says that we need 4 or 5 star players for a dynasty and yes his words have proved prophetic, but I can't agree that we have no star players and hat you need this for a dynasty. Star players certainly help, especially if they are of the forward or explosive mid type, but you also need luck, and a good strong core of 30+ players who can swap in and out seamlessly.

Yes 2017 and 2018 were disappointing. 2018 more so in my opinion because we were so far of the pace from Round 1 it was almost like we hadn't done the work in the off season. When you look deeper though both 2017 and 2018 have been cruelled by injury to key player at the wrong time. The bonus though has been we have probably unearthed the next generation.

I would be happy winning a flag dropping down for 3 to 5 years and bobbing up and winning another. If we did that over a 10 year period, a little like Sydney have to me that is more likely to breed longer terms success

[Twodogs]

Bourke had a massive tanty that we won a flag and his pathetic club are still going around in circles. We won a flag in 2016, we have gone backwards since and we are STILL closer to a flag than St Kilda are.

Bourke would do well to concentrate on his own club and what they can do to improve themselves instead of taking pot shots at clubs that actually achieve things.

[SonofScray]

It also begs some questions:
Why did we drop off the cliff after the win?
What could we and what should we have done differently after the Grand Final?
Did we get ahead of ourselves?
Did we fluke the win?
Did we just overachieve?
Did we not have that strong of a list?

First port of call, Burke's article was trash. Even if you accept that we don't have the stars, the idea that that determines capacity for a dynasty hasn't quite hit the mark elsewhere either. I wouldn't give him too much credit.

1. 15/16 we had plenty of things fall our way. Tactically we got the jump on many teams and game styles diversified a bit. Demographics of the list were terrific for a new coach to run with. Injuries and game style proved taxing. Retirements. Rule changes. Entire club's narrative and identity got shaken up. There was a risk we'd drop off.

2. Could have made a few harder decisions earlier to cut into the list and shift the volume of injured, speculative talent on the list.

3. A little, yes.

4. No fluke, though it was exceptional in the true sense of the word. I hate people talking how we "just" hit our straps at the right time, or "just" had a good team etc. It won't be repeated for some time, what we did. Our best footy across 15/16 was pure. In an era of negativity around Aussie Rules we shone a beacon for how the game should be played.

5. No such thing as overachieve. Footy is full of true-isms. So many facts hold true until they don't.

6. It was strong, but has been weakened, including immediately post GF.

[GVGjr]

Does some of the comments made by our Bob Murphy in some way support Burkes view?
I remember Murphy saying something like it was a bigger climb for us when compared to clubs like the Hawks.
At the time I thought that was just very dismissive of what the club achieved and it sounded like a convenient excuse to explain poor performances. Still drunk from the flag success I don't many of our fans would have challenged it.
Then there was an article from Chris Grant saying that given the playing list there was a level of expectation from the club that we could fall away.

Both comments from our own club legends seem to support at least some of what Burke wrote.

[GVGjr]

Bourke had a massive tanty that we won a flag and his pathetic club are still going around in circles. We won a flag in 2016, we have gone backwards since and we are STILL closer to a flag than St Kilda are.

Bourke would do well to concentrate on his own club and what they can do to improve themselves instead of taking pot shots at clubs that actually achieve things.

I think the article was written the week before the GF and it was written as a journo not as a Saints man.
It's easy to dismiss it. because I think I did at the time, but looking back our chance of having sustained success on the field was a complete failure. We are very lucky that Gordon and the management team have turned around our fortunes off the field.

[Mofra]

In some ways he is right - although the Saints did have a dynasty late last decade that got them close but not quite over the line, and they had structured their cap so that when they fell away they crashed hard. I prefer our story.

Who are our stars? Bonti. That's one.

Macrae is an accumulator and brilliant at what he does but is he a star? He seems more 'club champion' than 'competition champion' despite some of his incredible achievements (43 touches and 2 goals as a 19 year old).

Lachie Hunter won our B&F but again like Macrae he's an accumulator. He reminds me of Lachie Neale who won a B&F, the came second, then won a B&F again yet was still largely in Fyfe's shadow because Fyfe's ceiling is incredible.

We had Stringer for 2015 and the first half of 2016 before injury, but he's gone.
Who else on the list comes close to star factor? Schache looks set to become a genuine no 1 KPF but more as a solid workhorse than genuine star. Boyd has shown it in one game and will be lucky to get on the park this year.

Naughton is a brilliant intercept & contested mark but was Lake considered a star?
Richards is one because he genuinely takes on (and beats the opposition) and on top of that has hurt factor in his disposal but he's a couple of years away.
Daniel doesn't even have a best position, he's miles away from star factor.

The one guy who can step into the star role - and is absolutely admired by opposition midfielder who see him up close - is Libba. He just needs to get some continuity though after two knee recos.

[Remi Moses]

Fair points from Burke , but Sydney got a star, ( in fact a champion) added to their side and didn’t win a flag

[Remi Moses]

I don’t think you’re going to see “a dynasty”from anyone soon
GWS was meant to be a dynasty

[westbulldog]

Yes the planets did align in 2016 . We won and we deserved to win. We currently have a great list who will likely do rather well. I didn't know that a dynasty was essential to anything, Burke as a journo just wanted some publicity, his comments were a total non-starter.

[Twodogs]

I think the article was written the week before the GF and it was written as a journo not as a Saints man.
It's easy to dismiss it. because I think I did at the time, but looking back our chance of having sustained success on the field was a complete failure.

I've just reread the article and you are right it was written on the 21st September. He also said that GWS would have a dynasty and he got that wrong too.

We are very lucky that Gordon and the management team have turned around our fortunes off the field

That was an important part to the equation that often gets overlooked. Yep we win a flag, yep we fell away afterwards but one thing we did do was to ensure the future of the club. No more waking up and wondering if this is the day that the AFL switch the tap off.

[The Pie Man]

Why did we drop off the cliff after the win?

Mainly form/injuries (JJ, Dahl, Stringer, Boyds, Rough, Dickson, Smith, Biggs, Roberts) some rule changes (ruck) and some senior players came to the end. Matty Boyd was huge in 2016, and the Roughhead / Boyd combo was very effective in the finals. We started 2017 well enough, beating Richmond and nearly pinching it against GWS in Canberra & West Coast in Perth. After the bye in 2017, our pressure around the ground just fell away (that Melbourne game was horrific)

What could we and what should we have done differently after the Grand Final?

Who knows – yes, a Dogs flag was like heading to the moon, but Richmond’s flag in 2017 probably felt pretty similar, and they backed up well in 2018 (learning from our mistakes perhaps)

Did we get ahead of ourselves?

It does appear so – you hope that Stringer, Dahlhaus & Biggs all leaving since addresses the perception around this….still think it’s a real shame Jake couldn’t stay and become an absolute monster for us (which draws on Burke’s point) but it was clearly best for both parties.

Did we fluke the win?

No – the prelim & GF were as hard and tough as they come. We did perhaps benefit the most from the week off, but commentators concerns around this are the teams from the top 4 that win their QF and only play twice in 5 weeks come prelim round. Safe to say it didn’t hurt GWS in 2016, they were very good that night (if I’m being generous, perhaps they were slow out of the blocks…though I don’t really buy it)

Did we just overachieve?

I wouldn’t phrase it like that – while we finished 7th, we were two wins & % from top spot, and no chance to finish top 4 when we played Freo last round so our intensity dropped off markedly. North finished 8th 5 wins back of top. Finals throw up surprises, and once we surprised everyone by beating West Coast, it seemed anything was possible (and we were 4 + goals behind Hawthorn in the 2nd quarter the next week)

Did we not have that strong of a list?

It seems the planets aligned – so many were playing their best footy, we didn’t carry anyone in the last two weeks other than maybe Caleb Daniel, who still had his moments. The bookends that worked in September/October 2016 didn’t again (Roberts / Boyd)
I like our mini rebuild / refresh though – but Burke’s point about stars is probably more true now than it was then (in 2016 I'd argue JJ & Bont were massive, and Stringer was coming off an All Australian year – now…..I’ve got high hopes for Bailey Smith in a few years)

Stars certainly help, but that old champion team over a team of champions thing still rings true to me. Old school I guess.

[Sedat]

Nathan's article was less about lack of star players and more a critique of our club's history which is marginally better than St.Kilda's.

Our club has won 11 flags since it was formed in the 19th century. His pissant team has won one during the same period. They were fodder in the VFA and have remained that way in the VFL/AFL.

The original article had absolutely nothing to do with our perceived star power and our inability to forge a dynasty, and everything to do with envy. I am happy to discuss reasons for our regression since 2016 (have done on numerous excellent threads on the topic) but I would never use this piece of shit article as a basis for such discussion.

[bornadog]

Our club has won 11 flags since it was formed in the 19th century. His pissant team has won one during the same period. They were fodder in the VFA and have remained that way in the VFL/AFL.

The original article had absolutely nothing to do with our perceived star power and our inability to forge a dynasty, and everything to do with envy. I am happy to discuss reasons for our regression since 2016 (have done on numerous excellent threads on the topic) but I would never use this piece of shit article as a basis for such discussion.

Don't forget the 27 odd wooden spoons and the shit culture at that club.

[The Adelaide Connection]

Does some of the comments made by our Bob Murphy in some way support Burkes view?
I remember Murphy saying something like it was a bigger climb for us when compared to clubs like the Hawks.
At the time I thought that was just very dismissive of what the club achieved and it sounded like a convenient excuse to explain poor performances. Still drunk from the flag success I don't many of our fans would have challenged it.
Then there was an article from Chris Grant saying that given the playing list there was a level of expectation from the club that we could fall away.

Both comments from our own club legends seem to support at least some of what Burke wrote.

From memory Bob’s comments were more around the emotional impact of the flag on our club (versus a Hawthorn who has won a bunch in the last 50 years).

He talked about it like climbing the mountain for the Hawks, going to the moon for us. I don’t think this was a commentary on the personnel (or comparison of our playing group versus the Hawks etc).