Always Right Match Committee R6, Vs Fremantle

[mjp]

How was Libba at fault? His midfield time was obviously being managed (coming off a 9 day break what's more) so not sure what more he could've done.

Understand the mids got owned (for probably the first time this year), but were our defenders & forwards not at fault too?

At the start of the 3rd, Libba and Cripps were engaged in a push and shove at the bounce. Cool. FF 20 seconds, Cripps has won the stoppage, given it to Sammy Seaton, wrapped around and gotten it back.

If that push and shove is all Libba had for us on the weekend, then it wasn't anywhere near enough. The Libba who shutdown Kennedy in the 2016 GF did more than push and shove before the bounce...so did the one we saw in the first month of the season.

Is it his fault? No - but that effort was representative of the team effort.

[G-Mo77]

Bevo on his brief acknowledged Freo have a tall forward line and will have to combat that. Pity he didn't see who Carlton had up forward before picking a team of back flankers to stop them. We'll probably bring in Roarke Smith to help down back.

[Danjul]

1. I don't think it's funny when Daniel is 1-v-1 for a high ball inside D50. I don't think it is funny at all (and I never did).
2. He isn't positioned as such - he 100% is not. Any simple observation would tell you that the reason he finds himself 1-v-1 against a tall is because he is the one who gets on his bike and works back to compete...nothing is stopping Cordy, Wood, Crozier or any number of others doing it...they just don't.
3. I don't think the coaches are telling Caleb to be the one to 'play deep'. But at the same time, if he is the nearest one, then he just has to go - if that is what happens, that is what happens...we play a zoning defense (again, another complete off subject issue) and whilst we are doing that we risk any player in the back 6 being caught out this way.



If Cordy isn't a KPP what the hell is he?
Wood needs to be able to compete against 195cm size players overhead. And between the TWO of them, they 100% should be able to bring the ball to ground. That's why it is a team game - not a procession of 1v1 contests...helping one another out is not only allowed, some would say it should be actively encouraged.

When a team is going poorly, they don't help one another in the back 6 - they all play on their men. Mids try and get easy kicks/gather stats. And forwards play behind looking for easy touches/goals...all of those things happen so the players can point at the stats sheet and say "Well, it wasn't my fault. I still had 30/my man didn't hurt us/I still kicked 2". Sound familiar. It is BS is what it is and that is what we dished up.



If Liam Jones punches the ball, our players are actually allowed to pick it up off the deck and have a shot on goal...this is how you win the i50's (again) but lose on the scoreboard. All a tall forward really needs to do is bring the ball to the deck...

As for 'Cordy couldn't reach it'...here's a radical suggestion you might have heard in the u7's. Play in front.

Are there issues with selection and structure? Sure, fine. But none of that excuses the effort on the weekend and getting smashed in the clearances by Carlton.

I don't understand what everyone wants. We are unhappy that Boyd wasn't left up forward despite his struggles and played some time in the ruck. But now when the coach says Naughton is going to play as a forward, we all want him moved back? You can't have it both ways. You either want the coaches to develop players in set positions in which case Naughton should stay forward and we should persist with English in the ruck or you want versatility in which case we should swing Naughton back at the first sign of 'trouble' and send English back to the magoos.

I can just imagine the outcry if we were bouncing Boyd between forward and back....but you want Naughton to do that?

None of this means I necessarily agree with the 'call' to make Naughton a forward...but that is the call. So now we have made it, we need him to play forward and tell him to compete hard even when it is not his day. And maybe he will actually learn by DOING that even when it is not his day, if he persists and attacks the footy relentlessly it might actually be his moment? And one moment can turn a match (we even have a thread about that).

As for Schache, well, I think he should have played against Carlton and the help he provided English with + different 'match-up' in the forward 50 was important in the first few games...but you couldn't pick him after the Collingwood game when he simply didn't bring effort. You can't have that in the side - it cannot be accepted/rewarded and EXCLUSION is the only thing that means anything to players. (If you don't believe me on this, you don't know footballers). So whilst we 'needed' him from a team perspective, he HAD to be dropped. You can't tolerate that sort of stuff.

Sorry, l think the club has a lot more talent than the results suggest. But

1. Because they handball forward instead of 40m kicks the backline gets caught forward of the ball when a turnover occurs (frequently). That’s why Caleb is the only one near the ball.

2. Cordy,at 192cm, is never going to be a key position player. He gets outmarked and most of his possessions are loose balls. He did play in front and got outreached numerous times in our last three losses. That is why his direct opponent usually wins.

3. Wood is less than 190 cm and is a natural running half back. When he gets the ball it should mean a 50m gain. He was jumping to spoil 200+ cm players (Carlton had three inside their 50m arc). Successful a few times but robs him of positive contributions.

4. Boyd should never have been put in the ruck. He started as a good forward and the rest is history. Numerous games with barely a touch. Now the same is being done to Schache. Wouldn’t see Franklin, Kennedy, Hawkins.... wasted in the ruck. They are goal kicking specialists- something the Dogs don’t believe in. That’s why we have close to the lowest scores in the competition. 23 goals in the last three games.

The club has a psychological aversion to height and specialists. They have spent the last 2 years proving that they have it wrong. Started half way through 2017 and they have struggled since. That’s why it is becoming difficult for some supporters to take more of this ‘only midfielders’ nonsense.

[bornadog]

Sorry, l think the club has a lot more talent than the results suggest. But

1. Because they handball forward instead of 40m kicks the backline gets caught forward of the ball when a turnover occurs (frequently). That’s why Caleb is the only one near the ball.

2. Cordy,at 192cm, is never going to be a key position player. He gets outmarked and most of his possessions are loose balls. He did play in front and got outreached numerous times in our last three losses. That is why his direct opponent usually wins.

3. Wood is less than 190 cm and is a natural running half back. When he gets the ball it should mean a 50m gain. He was jumping to spoil 200+ cm players (Carlton had three inside their 50m arc). Successful a few times but robs him of positive contributions.

4. Boyd should never have been put in the ruck. He started as a good forward and the rest is history. Numerous games with barely a touch. Now the same is being done to Schache. Wouldn’t see Franklin, Kennedy, Hawkins.... wasted in the ruck. They are goal kicking specialists- something the Dogs don’t believe in. That’s why we have close to the lowest scores in the competition. 23 goals in the last three games.

The club has a psychological aversion to height and specialists. They have spent the last 2 years proving that they have it wrong. Started half way through 2017 and they have struggled since. That’s why it is becoming difficult for some supporters to take more of this ‘only midfielders’ nonsense.

Whilst most of what you have said is true, we can't play talls for the sake of being tall.

[mjp]

Sorry, l think the club has a lot more talent than the results suggest. But

1. Because they handball forward instead of 40m kicks the backline gets caught forward of the ball when a turnover occurs (frequently). That’s why Caleb is the only one near the ball.

2. Cordy,at 192cm, is never going to be a key position player. He gets outmarked and most of his possessions are loose balls. He did play in front and got outreached numerous times in our last three losses. That is why his direct opponent usually wins.

3. Wood is less than 190 cm and is a natural running half back. When he gets the ball it should mean a 50m gain. He was jumping to spoil 200+ cm players (Carlton had three inside their 50m arc). Successful a few times but robs him of positive contributions.

4. Boyd should never have been put in the ruck. He started as a good forward and the rest is history. Numerous games with barely a touch. Now the same is being done to Schache. Wouldn’t see Franklin, Kennedy, Hawkins.... wasted in the ruck. They are goal kicking specialists- something the Dogs don’t believe in. That’s why we have close to the lowest scores in the competition. 23 goals in the last three games.

The club has a psychological aversion to height and specialists. They have spent the last 2 years proving that they have it wrong. Started half way through 2017 and they have struggled since. That’s why it is becoming difficult for some supporters to take more of this ‘only midfielders’ nonsense.

Wood is a running half back who never gets the ball and is not a good kick...he is a lot of things and greater than the sum of his parts, but he is not a running half back. He is an intercept defender. That's what he is. JJ is a running half back. So is Suckling. So (was) Williams. So is Caleb Daniel. So is Crozier. Wood is not.

At 192cm Cordy is a KPP. That's what he is. He is that or he is nothing.

You don't want Boyd in the ruck and you don't want Schache in the ruck but you do want Naughton shuffled back?

Boyd's best footy at senior level - much like Paul Salmon's - has been as a ruckman. There is nothing wrong with that and if he was available to play ruck right now we wouldn't be battling in that part of the ground. I keep hearing that he started as a 'good forward' - never seen it at AFL level.

[Danjul]

Whilst most of what you have said is true, we can't play talls for the sake of being tall.

I will use round one of 2018 as an example. (A bad loss).

Roberts is a tall. He was on the backline. He had 14 possessions which were 12 kicks and 2 handball. He was dropped and stayed dropped.

for comparison, dale Morris played 11 games that year and had more than 13 possessions once. No criticism intended, just showing what back men do .

Also in game one : Wood 7 possessions (5 kicks), Trengove 4 (0 kicks), Naughton 11 (9 kicks) Cordy 14 (8 were kicks) Gowers (10 and 5), Dunkley (16 and 9). all selected for the next game. crosier 8 (6kicks) dropped but back after a few weeks.

There seems to be more to getting selected than what they do in the game.

And in the last three games (all losses) we were too short in critical plays.

[Grantysghost]

This could be my last post, but keeping an injury prone 36 year old in Morris doesn't seem like great list management to me. Could we have used his spot to bring in someone taller ? Is this part of the Bevo's mates club? I love Dale, goes without saying with what he's done, I'm just wondering if this is indicative of not being able to make tough calls when required or a lack of different opinions within the group. Of course I have no idea this didn't happen it's just an interesting observation. Morris or Sam Collins? I hope we are having these debates internally.
*Runs behind couch and hides*

[Danjul]

Wood is a running half back who never gets the ball and is not a good kick...he is a lot of things and greater than the sum of his parts, but he is not a running half back. He is an intercept defender. That's what he is. JJ is a running half back. So is Suckling. So (was) Williams. So is Caleb Daniel. So is Crozier. Wood is not.

At 192cm Cordy is a KPP. That's what he is. He is that or he is nothing.

You don't want Boyd in the ruck and you don't want Schache in the ruck but you do want Naughton shuffled back?

Boyd's best footy at senior level - much like Paul Salmon's - has been as a ruckman. There is nothing wrong with that and if he was available to play ruck right now we wouldn't be battling in that part of the ground. I keep hearing that he started as a 'good forward' - never seen it at AFL level.

In 2015 for example, wood was a running half back and averaged 20 possessions per game. Now in his new role he is averaging 10 this year.

Cordy is too short for a KP defender. in the last part of 2016 (including finals) Cordy kicked as many goals as Stringer and more than the Bont. His 2 goals in the Elimination final got us into the Grand Final.

cannot agree that Boyd is a ruckman. In 2016 he played in the ruck 15 times and averaged 8 hitouts per game. Campbell averaged 21 and Roughy 14. As a forward he got 16 goals in the first half of 2015. In 2017 he averaged 4 kicks per game , a wasted talent for a potential 60 goals a year player- that’s why he was recruited.

[Bulldog4life]

This could be my last post, but keeping an injury prone 36 year old in Morris doesn't seem like great list management to me. Could we have used his spot to bring in someone taller ? Is this part of the Bevo's mates club? I love Dale, goes without saying with what he's done, I'm just wondering if this is indicative of not being able to make tough calls when required or a lack of different opinions within the group. Of course I have no idea this didn't happen it's just an interesting observation. Morris or Sam Collins? I hope we are having these debates internally.
*Runs behind couch and hides*

Or even Kieran

[soupman]

In 2015 for example, wood was a running half back and averaged 20 possessions per game. Now in his new role he is averaging 10 this year.

No. Wood was an intercept defender. He won his possessions coming in for the aerial ball, or being part of the chain to switch. He was a competent attacking threat, but has never been a true line breaker like JJ or Daniel and has never been as good with ball in hand as Crozier or Suckling. Boyd was more of a playmaker in defence than Wood was, and i would consider his role to have been a distributor.

Since then Wood has gotten slower and less agile making his ability to run the ball out of defence worse, and since he is now even less able to create space and time his average ball use turns into constant 40m hopeful kicks to our undersized forwards. Besides, even if he was capable of being a half back he is behind all those guys MJP named for that role.

Wood's attributes now are that he is fairly strong, a good spoil, and a decent one on one defender (although he had a shocker in this regard on Sunday). Key defence is his best role now, besides there aren't a bunch of talls in the game that necessarily use their height to full advantage. All he has to do is limit a key forwards influence on the game enough so that they aren't a consistent threat and that will result in him playing his role. Not playing it overly well mind you, I would use Naughton as an example of someone who not only stops their opponent but can benefit from the supply to them, but Wood is not capable of that anymore. Effectively he is now our slightly smaller Dale Morris.

Cordy is too short for a KP defender. in the last part of 2016 (including finals) Cordy kicked as many goals as Stringer and more than the Bont. His 2 goals in the Elimination final got us into the Grand Final.

Cordy is tall enough and has long limbs to help, but gets worked out from underneath the ball too easily. He is aggressive which makes up for a lot of shortcomings, but is not a clever or talented enough player to be a permanent good forward, although I think he could serve a role there still and his bad games there wouldn't be as bad as someone like Schaches. If we play Naughton forward then Cordy is by far our best available key defender. He has struggled the last two weeks because he was been on super tall key forwards that have had the ball put to their advantage. There is no one on our list that is both aggressive and big enough to have been able to do much more than Cordy could in Cox's last quarter and some of McKays marks on the weekend.

Cannot agree that Boyd is a ruckman. In 2016 he played in the ruck 15 times and averaged 8 hitouts per game. Campbell averaged 21 and Roughy 14. As a forward he got 16 goals in the first half of 2015. In 2017 he averaged 4 kicks per game , a wasted talent for a potential 60 goals a year player- that’s why he was recruited.

So after 4 seasons with us Boyd's big sign he is a key forward is a modest return in half a season where we were a high scoring side? Boyd has played one good game as a key forward for us, and aside from that he has barely had a quarter where we've seen anything indicating he has the ability to become a true key forward. He is easily outbodied, reads the flight of the ball poorly, has shocking marking technique (genuinely terrible) and is the most useless of all our players once the ball hits the deck. I want him to be a good key forward but even half his good moments seem more like flukes than by design.

Yes he was recruited as a key forward and I'm happy for us to play him there, but to date by far his most consistently good football has been as a ruckman. Even when he plays as a key forward in the VFL he isn't dominant, bloody Paddy McCartin is a better VFL player than him. He is not a great ruck but he is an ok one and could still grow further in that role, but he has shown a much bigger ability to get involved in and impact games as a ruckman than he has as a key forward.

[Mantis]

Some of these threads are getting ridiculous.

Thanks for your input.

[Danjul]

2015 round 3, start of Boyd’s time with us:

He wasn’t used in the ruck, purely as a young forward.

marks: 6 most in team
goals: 3. Out of 8
disposals: 14

A good day’s work against Hawks. We would be thrilled if someone did that now.

yes, I know- Naughton did the same in round one and everyone still hasn’t come back to earth.

[Grantysghost]

Or even Kieran

I meant the ex docker now Sun who played at Box Hill in between. Great intercept mark would slot in nicely. Hindsight I guess...

[bornadog]

Thanks for your input.

My pleasure.

I am all for healthy debate which has happened since my post, but prior to that, unreadable at times.

[mjp]

I meant the ex docker now Sun who played at Box Hill in between. Great intercept mark would slot in nicely. Hindsight I guess...

Collins is great. But even he would tell you he is as slow as treacle and not a fit for quite a few defensive schemes...I think he was relatively ok with the Freo experience and appreciative that they gave him a go. He has looked pretty ok on the GC but it is the earliest of early days and we don’t know how that will turn out. Freo preferred Hamling and Pearce to Collins and so do I.

The post above about Morris is (of course) accuarate in every way. But the thing is you can’t assess dale Morris using data and statistics...he is more than that. Easton Wood was as well once upon a time - a mid sized player who made a McGovern (Andrew variety) sized impact on the competition. That player is in their somewhere and it is up to the coaches (and the captain himself) to find him.