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  1. #91
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    Re: Always Right Match Committee Rnd 10, vs North Melbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    This must be a recent thing, he ignored playing both Trengove and English together when he had the chance to earlier in the season.

    I agree we need to play at least one of Schache and/or Lewis Young
    That JLT 1 game really scarred us. The plan seemed to be a Trengove/English combo all pre-season, with Naughton back. It was quickly abandoned for round 1.
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  2. #92
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    Re: Always Right Match Committee Rnd 10, vs North Melbourne

    Thanks mjp.

    I enjoyed your analysis, so much so that I read it twice.

    I agree with everything you said 100%.

    Now do the same with the height problem and you will have set the Dogs up for an era of success.

  3. #93
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    Re: Always Right Match Committee Rnd 10, vs North Melbourne

    I hear what mjp is saying, mulling over the last 5 picked is very deck chairs on the Titanic. I do however think Fletch is a bit different to say Hayes. Who you go with as your key back has more influence than the last runner you pick. Also, as much as the bottom 5 don't matter THAT much, they do matter a bit. It's an area we can clearly improve a little.

    But yes, it's massively about the gun to good player range. The bottom 5 didn't contribute much at all vs Tigers. The stars were very poor vs Blues.
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  5. #94
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    Re: Always Right Match Committee Rnd 10, vs North Melbourne

    Why is it either/or?

    The bottom 5 need to improve and anyone not up to it shouldn’t be on the list, let alone playing.

    And the guns need to impact the game more.

    I still reckon Hayes needs to be dropped. Not good enough. Whether Bont kicks more or not, Hayes is a liability.

  6. #95
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    Re: Always Right Match Committee Rnd 10, vs North Melbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMahatma View Post
    Why is it either/or?

    The bottom 5 need to improve and anyone not up to it shouldn’t be on the list, let alone playing.

    And the guns need to impact the game more.

    I still reckon Hayes needs to be dropped. Not good enough. Whether Bont kicks more or not, Hayes is a liability.
    I guess this is my point. We don't have to pick one to improve. The stars are more important but the bottom 5 matter too.
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  7. #96
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    Re: Always Right Match Committee Rnd 10, vs North Melbourne

    It's also the match committee thread. We aren't dropping our best 5 players so there's less to discuss about them here.

  8. #97
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    Re: Always Right Match Committee Rnd 10, vs North Melbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMahatma View Post
    Why is it either/or?

    The bottom 5 need to improve and anyone not up to it shouldn’t be on the list, let alone playing.

    And the guns need to impact the game more.

    I still reckon Hayes needs to be dropped. Not good enough. Whether Bont kicks more or not, Hayes is a liability.
    Agreed. It has often been said that in finals when teams are evenly matched the bottom 5 or 6 players can prove the difference. Might only be a small difference but it's still tangible.

  9. #98
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    Re: Always Right Match Committee Rnd 10, vs North Melbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by hujsh View Post
    It's also the match committee thread. We aren't dropping our best 5 players so there's less to discuss about them here.
    Yeah, sure. But the scrutiny on the bottom few is overwhelming. Every week I read about Hayes, Young, now it's Fletcher. In the past it has been Honeychurch...those guys will be what they be and they ALWAYS will. When the group around them play BETTER, they will look better.

    I just find it maddening that - for example - it is all Gowers fault, yet we have a group of our best players refusing to simply kick the ball inside 50m when he IS 1v1 so we will never know if he would have got it or not. Bring in Schache if you like - it simply will not matter. Bont's 2nd half was awesome last week...but he was in at the first two CBD's of the game (or I seem to recall he was) when Geeolong strolled out and kicked it to Rohan playing on our skipper...

    That's Robert's fault? That's Hayes' fault? Give me a spell...
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

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  11. #99
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    Re: Always Right Match Committee Rnd 10, vs North Melbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    Yeah, sure. But the scrutiny on the bottom few is overwhelming. Every week I read about Hayes, Young, now it's Fletcher. In the past it has been Honeychurch...those guys will be what they be and they ALWAYS will. When the group around them play BETTER, they will look better.

    I just find it maddening that - for example - it is all Gowers fault, yet we have a group of our best players refusing to simply kick the ball inside 50m when he IS 1v1 so we will never know if he would have got it or not. Bring in Schache if you like - it simply will not matter. Bont's 2nd half was awesome last week...but he was in at the first two CBD's of the game (or I seem to recall he was) when Geeolong strolled out and kicked it to Rohan playing on our skipper...

    That's Robert's fault? That's Hayes' fault? Give me a spell...
    It's not that there isn't criticism of the better players (search the forum by "Hunter" if you don't believe me), its that the selection of Gowers, Hayes, Roberts etc are problems that seem to be of our own doing and are immediately fixable by they players available in the seconds.

    This is a match committee thread, after all.

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  13. #100
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    Re: Always Right Match Committee Rnd 10, vs North Melbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    Yeah, sure. But the scrutiny on the bottom few is overwhelming. Every week I read about Hayes, Young, now it's Fletcher. In the past it has been Honeychurch...those guys will be what they be and they ALWAYS will. When the group around them play BETTER, they will look better.

    I just find it maddening that - for example - it is all Gowers fault, yet we have a group of our best players refusing to simply kick the ball inside 50m when he IS 1v1 so we will never know if he would have got it or not. Bring in Schache if you like - it simply will not matter. Bont's 2nd half was awesome last week...but he was in at the first two CBD's of the game (or I seem to recall he was) when Geeolong strolled out and kicked it to Rohan playing on our skipper...

    That's Robert's fault? That's Hayes' fault? Give me a spell...
    I like Gowers - but most times he got an opportunity last weekend 1 on 1 he gave away a stupid free kick.

    Billy's talented, but I believe he needs some time at Footscray to find the footy again. I imagine plenty would prefer he not play again, though I'm not in that camp.

    The kick the ball thing - yeah I hear you, except that how often have we just blazed long into the F50 over the past few years only for the ball to come back the other way? It was bordering on insane at one point. Do think Bailey Smith overuses handball early in possession, but as he gets more confident that should balance out (he's going to be so good)

    Can't argue the point about Rohan on Wood early, although he did take a pretty nice catch at one point that would've been hard to spoil. Plenty have been scathing of Easton this season, and our starts have also not been great.

    Roberts wasn't horrible, but didn't look like halving contests that Hawkins goaled from when those opportunities arose. When the time came, he looked too easy to play against.
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  14. #101
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    Re: Always Right Match Committee Rnd 10, vs North Melbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Days View Post
    It's not that there isn't criticism of the better players (search the forum by "Hunter" if you don't believe me), its that the selection of Gowers, Hayes, Roberts etc are problems that seem to be of our own doing and are immediately fixable by they players available in the seconds.

    This is a match committee thread, after all.
    This is where I get driven crazy. Dropping Hayes wont solve a single thing. Nor will dropping Gowers. Nor will dropping Roberts. We will just bring in a new round of whipping boys.

    I get the Williams love on one level...but he has played two games this year. And he was BAD. Very, very BAD. Now somehow replacing Hayes with Williams is going to 'FIX IT'? Well, this is where I don't get it...

    Replacing Hayes with Lipinski? Go for it. But Lipinski is really, really slow. And maybe he will be better...and maybe he wont.

    When I read people say that they are 'done' with their memberships if Gowers or Hayes are selected, give me a break. All we really want from guys at the bottom end of the playing list is effort. Hayes brings effort. Has he played the perfect first few games? Probably not...Has he played the WORST? Definitely not. What happened to the 20-game rule where we gave guys the benefit of the doubt.

    Sling off at Gowers - fine. But when Schache last played everyone was (justifiably) up in arms about his performance as well.

    As for it being a match committee thread, well, is it? Where is the discussion of match-ups, North's strong and weak points, the thing that makes their game go...it is just a whole heap of us piling on 3 blokes...I seem to recall one post even said to drop the match committee 'cos they keep picking guys who aren't up to it?

    Match committee isn't about dropping players. It is about selecting a team and adjusting a game-style to beat a specific opponent. It just feels like we have abandoned that sort of discussion and now just furiously agree with each other that kicking a few blokes to the curb will solve everything?

    I don't mean to aim all of this at you by the way HD - but it is just exhausting reading the same arguments every week...to me this is OUR thread - not the clubs. So since we don't KNOW what they are going to do, should we start by how we are going to counter Brown and how we will stop Cunnington around the contest and exactly WHO will take responsibility for Higgins?
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

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  16. #102
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    Re: Always Right Match Committee Rnd 10, vs North Melbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    This is where I get driven crazy. Dropping Hayes wont solve a single thing. Nor will dropping Gowers. Nor will dropping Roberts. We will just bring in a new round of whipping boys.

    I get the Williams love on one level...but he has played two games this year. And he was BAD. Very, very BAD. Now somehow replacing Hayes with Williams is going to 'FIX IT'? Well, this is where I don't get it...

    Replacing Hayes with Lipinski? Go for it. But Lipinski is really, really slow. And maybe he will be better...and maybe he wont.

    When I read people say that they are 'done' with their memberships if Gowers or Hayes are selected, give me a break. All we really want from guys at the bottom end of the playing list is effort. Hayes brings effort. Has he played the perfect first few games? Probably not...Has he played the WORST? Definitely not. What happened to the 20-game rule where we gave guys the benefit of the doubt.

    Sling off at Gowers - fine. But when Schache last played everyone was (justifiably) up in arms about his performance as well.

    As for it being a match committee thread, well, is it? Where is the discussion of match-ups, North's strong and weak points, the thing that makes their game go...it is just a whole heap of us piling on 3 blokes...I seem to recall one post even said to drop the match committee 'cos they keep picking guys who aren't up to it?

    Match committee isn't about dropping players. It is about selecting a team and adjusting a game-style to beat a specific opponent. It just feels like we have abandoned that sort of discussion and now just furiously agree with each other that kicking a few blokes to the curb will solve everything?

    I don't mean to aim all of this at you by the way HD - but it is just exhausting reading the same arguments every week...to me this is OUR thread - not the clubs. So since we don't KNOW what they are going to do, should we start by how we are going to counter Brown and how we will stop Cunnington around the contest and exactly WHO will take responsibility for Higgins?
    Fair, and thanks for expanding on your point; I don't and won't ever take anything with thought put into it personally. I honestly don't think there's that much wrong with the side at the moment, and sanding off the edges will help a fair bit, but it's not essential.

    Do we need to tag/take responsibility for Higgins? Kelly didn't really hurt us too badly last week (unless you were watching the game through Chris Scott's eyes according to the coaches' votes), and he's a far more dynamic and quick player in a similar role. Obviously there's some sort of opposition to be put before him, but the best way to contain may be to win the midfield battle generally and force greater stoppage accountability. I kinda view taggers as a loss leader anyway, and the guys I would task with pinning him down (Dunkley or Wallis) are more valuable to us as offensive weapons, be it in the middle (Dunkley) or I50 (Wallis).

    I said this elsewhere but Brown sucks. He is a one trick pony and is totally reliant on the ball being put on a single plot point or being paid a free kick. If we can't contain him with what we have then our problems down back are more severe than I imagined. He will get 2-3 goals from sheer weight of entry directed to him but he's not impactful on games at all when he isn't having a set shot, and is a a trampoline once the ball hits the ground. I'd even be fine with Roberts on him.

    North's midfield make-up actually bares some similarities to the Carlton one that messed us up, albeit with lesser talent. Goldstein is a skilled tap ruckman and much like Kreuzer makes the whole midfield better and more dangerous. I think we let him (Kreuzer) control traffic against us too much and it let Cripps and SPS get on top, and could easily be something that repeats itself with akin players like Cunnington and all those spreaders (Polec has killed us before too). If Tim plays then he could take a tip from Trengove and try to neutralise as much as tap in the ruck, and then beat him around the ground like he did Nankervis and Lobb. I'm really confident in our midfield to win more 50-50 balls than North, and Trengove's dirty boxing approach to ruckwork is more conducive to us winning games right now.

    Basically I think our mids are better than theirs and if given an equal opportunity will beat them and we will win. Containment will flow on from being better.

  17. #103
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    Re: Always Right Match Committee Rnd 10, vs North Melbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pie Man View Post
    I like Gowers - but most times he got an opportunity last weekend 1 on 1 he gave away a stupid free kick.

    Billy's talented, but I believe he needs some time at Footscray to find the footy again. I imagine plenty would prefer he not play again, though I'm not in that camp.

    The kick the ball thing - yeah I hear you, except that how often have we just blazed long into the F50 over the past few years only for the ball to come back the other way? It was bordering on insane at one point. Do think Bailey Smith overuses handball early in possession, but as he gets more confident that should balance out (he's going to be so good)

    Can't argue the point about Rohan on Wood early, although he did take a pretty nice catch at one point that would've been hard to spoil. Plenty have been scathing of Easton this season, and our starts have also not been great.

    Roberts wasn't horrible, but didn't look like halving contests that Hawkins goaled from when those opportunities arose. When the time came, he looked too easy to play against.
    this is our problem. Billy is not talented.

  18. #104
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    Re: Always Right Match Committee Rnd 10, vs North Melbourne

    The team in the past 3 games has performed pretty well against good teams in Richmond Brisbane and Geelong whose extra class and experience proved to be the difference.
    To be a final 8 contender we still need to improve. I would like to see the recall of the likes of Lew Young, Lipinski Williams and Dale for an extended period given their good consistent form with Footscray. Without taking a bold approach we are in danger of stagnating. This is the ideal week against North Melbourne to refresh our side. There is also a need by the MC to put a better structure in place. It would seem that the WB needs Trengrove as a key defender and that our forward line looks better with a second key forward to support Naughton.

  19. #105
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    Re: Always Right Match Committee Rnd 10, vs North Melbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    This is where I get driven crazy. Dropping Hayes wont solve a single thing. Nor will dropping Gowers. Nor will dropping Roberts. We will just bring in a new round of whipping boys.

    I get the Williams love on one level...but he has played two games this year. And he was BAD. Very, very BAD. Now somehow replacing Hayes with Williams is going to 'FIX IT'? Well, this is where I don't get it...
    I'm not sure I agree with the logic, there have been a few players that have put in bad games and survived being chopped after just one game. Regarding Williams, he trained all pre-season with the midfielders and was assigned to the backline for the first game.
    He was promptly sent back to Footscray after a poor game where he put together some good games. He returned again to the seniors and was again less than impressive and was promptly dropped after just one game.

    I look at this from a different perspective, his ceiling is vastly higher than some of the players that are allowed to work though a bad game or two so I think he deserves a bit better than just coming in and out of the team unless there is other reasons we aren't quite privy to.

    I was critical of Gowers at times last year but I don't he's been as bad this year. While he is kicking goals he is making a compelling reason for him to be selected. Hayes is serviceable but has some limitations.

    While we are transitioning I think there is a case for playing guys like Schache and Williams more than they are being selected and for that matter Lewis Young, Lynch and Lipinski as well. We need to find out if some of these guys have a genuine future with us and we won't really know while they are playing at Footscray
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