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  1. #16
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    Re: The Israel Folau saga

    Yeah the argument of "free speech" doesn't really wash when it's used as a thinly veiled guise to trumpet hate speech, particularly in a world where some of the largest countries continue to purge the members of their LGBTQIA communities, and being forced to conceal your identity as a homosexual person is one of the main reasons for refugee flight outside of war.

    As pointed out, there's a bit of hypocrisy in Rugby AU's stance, but this is a really cut and dry case.
    - I'm a visionary - Only here to confirm my biases -

  2. #17
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    Re: The Israel Folau saga

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Dog View Post
    That's right. If you sign a contract you sign it.
    Not necessarily - if both parties act in a manner to indicate that it's on foot then Rugby AU is entitled to act like it actually is.
    - I'm a visionary - Only here to confirm my biases -

  3. #18
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    Re: The Israel Folau saga

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Days View Post
    Yeah the argument of "free speech" doesn't really wash when it's used as a thinly veiled guise to trumpet hate speech, particularly in a world where some of the largest countries continue to purge the members of their LGBTQIA communities, and being forced to conceal your identity as a homosexual person is one of the main reasons for refugee flight outside of war..
    What rubbish, almost without exception the countries people are fleeing, do not have any basis in democracy. For them freedom of speech and open debate are just an unobtainable dream. Oddly enough free speech would go a long way to breaking the oppressive bond between church and state in these countries. Just as it has done throughout the history of Judean-Christian Europe.

    I do not question your assertion that certain sections of these communities are very badly treated, but the difference between us is in the method that we would use to address this.

    And the term "hate speech" is just a SJW tactic to shut down considered debate.
    The truth will set you free,
    but first it will piss you off. ... Gloria Steinem.

  4. #19
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    Re: The Israel Folau saga

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanette54 View Post
    What rubbish, almost without exception the countries people are fleeing, do not have any basis in democracy. For them freedom of speech and open debate are just an unobtainable dream. Oddly enough free speech would go a long way to breaking the oppressive bond between church and state in these countries. Just as it has done throughout the history of Judean-Christian Europe.

    I do not question your assertion that certain sections of these communities are very badly treated, but the difference between us is in the method that we would use to address this.

    And the term "hate speech" is just a SJW tactic to shut down considered debate.
    The term SJW is just a tactic to shut down considered debate.

  5. #20
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    Re: The Israel Folau saga

    Yikes. You know we legislate against making public representations against groups of people based on immutable characteristics right? As a matter of international and domestic law? It's not a "SJW tactic" it's a standard that our democratic process has chosen to uphold.

    Yearning for the days of "considered debate" is just a dog whistle for yearning for the days of a monocultural echo chamber in regard to social issues where you didn't have to deal with the annoying rights of minority groups and people "wouldn't complain" about being vilified for existing without concealment. It comes from an incredible place of privilege and from a totally undesirable and anachronistic time.

    Also bookending a response with "what rubbish" and "considered debate" is pretty good.
    - I'm a visionary - Only here to confirm my biases -

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  7. #21
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    Re: The Israel Folau saga

    I don't buy the contract argument. What's his alternative to signing it, miss out on playing?
    If you kicked five goals and Tom Boyd kicked five goals, Tom Boyd kicked more goals than you.

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  8. #22
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    Re: The Israel Folau saga

    Quote Originally Posted by boydogs View Post
    I don't buy the contract argument. What's his alternative, miss out on playing?
    There's actually an interesting procedural fairness argument - Rugby AU have already clearly expressed a desire to never pick him again, so it probably isn't possible for him to get a fair hearing at their internal body. Now that he's chosen to not just walk it'll probably end up in the courts.
    - I'm a visionary - Only here to confirm my biases -

  9. #23
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    Re: The Israel Folau saga

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Days View Post

    Yearning for the days of "considered debate" is just a dog whistle for yearning for the days of a monocultural echo chamber in regard to social issues where you didn't have to deal with the annoying rights of minority groups and people "wouldn't complain" about being vilified for existing without concealment. It comes from an incredible place of privilege and from a totally undesirable and anachronistic time.
    I can at least recognise that my "incredible place of privilege" came about because of the freedoms won by incredibly brave people coupled with the principles of democracy. Free speech is one of the cornerstones of those principles.

    I also do not believe that I have vilified anyone, but I do accept that I denigrated your reasoning.

    I consider that any argument which endeavours to use what happens in countries which do not have democratic principles, as a reason to restrict our democratic rights, is exactly that; rubbish.
    The truth will set you free,
    but first it will piss you off. ... Gloria Steinem.

  10. #24
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    Re: The Israel Folau saga

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanette54 View Post
    I can at least recognise that my "incredible place of privilege" came about because of the freedoms won by incredibly brave people coupled with the principles of democracy. Free speech is one of the cornerstones of those principles.

    I also do not believe that I have vilified anyone, but I do accept that I denigrated your reasoning.

    I consider that any argument which endeavours to use what happens in countries which do not have democratic principles, as a reason to restrict our democratic rights, is exactly that; rubbish.
    One of the principles of Liberal Democracy is that your freedoms extend to the point that it harms other people. Active demonization of a current and historically persecuted minority easily counts as harm to others.

  11. #25
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    Re: The Israel Folau saga

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Days View Post
    Yikes. You know we legislate against making public representations against groups of people based on immutable characteristics right? As a matter of international and domestic law? It's not a "SJW tactic" it's a standard that our democratic process has chosen to uphold.

    Yearning for the days of "considered debate" is just a dog whistle for yearning for the days of a monocultural echo chamber in regard to social issues where you didn't have to deal with the annoying rights of minority groups and people "wouldn't complain" about being vilified for existing without concealment. It comes from an incredible place of privilege and from a totally undesirable and anachronistic time.

    Also bookending a response with "what rubbish" and "considered debate" is pretty good.
    Interesting point, my concern is the very thing you are advocating is the point you are also condeming. Do we immediately assume all minorities are stand up citizens ? No. Do we immediately assume everyone who advocates for educated debate is a homophobic white nationalist. No. We are mostly reasonable people, it's the sentiment that we are not that I struggle with .I like hearing your opinion, if I don't agree I'll say so. I enjoy our country exactly because it is multicultural, multifaith and a safe place for people of all genders and sexual preferences to be themselves. I totally disagree with Falou's beliefs but also believe he should be able to express them, otherwise you are attacking the very thing that makes us great.

  12. #26
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    Re: The Israel Folau saga

    Peter Gordon was on SEN this afternoon discussing amongst other things the Israel folau issue. From a legal perspective, Peter believes Israel is in trouble. I missed some of what Peter said, so can't explain much further.
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

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  14. #27
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    Re: The Israel Folau saga

    Quote Originally Posted by Grantysghost View Post
    Interesting point, my concern is the very thing you are advocating is the point you are also condeming. Do we immediately assume all minorities are stand up citizens ? No. Do we immediately assume everyone who advocates for educated debate is a homophobic white nationalist. No. We are mostly reasonable people, it's the sentiment that we are not that I struggle with .I like hearing your opinion, if I don't agree I'll say so. I enjoy our country exactly because it is multicultural, multifaith and a safe place for people of all genders and sexual preferences to be themselves. I totally disagree with Falou's beliefs but also believe he should be able to express them, otherwise you are attacking the very thing that makes us great.
    There's a limit though.

    'I don't agree with gay marriage' is different to 'Homosexuals are deviants who go against God and will face eternal damnation'

    Then at the farthest end there's 'Kill all Jews.' Can we agree that that the last one at a minimum is dangerous and an acceptable limit to speech?

  15. #28
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    Re: The Israel Folau saga

    Quote Originally Posted by hujsh View Post
    There's a limit though.

    'I don't agree with gay marriage' is different to 'Homosexuals are deviants who go against God and will face eternal damnation'

    Then at the farthest end there's 'Kill all Jews.' Can we agree that that the last one at a minimum is dangerous and an acceptable limit to speech?
    Fair point if you believe in eternal damnation. How many cans of worms can we open in one debate

    Godwins law is correct. Might be my fault, I used white nationalist.....

  16. #29
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    Re: The Israel Folau saga

    Well if that's the list of things heading a great deal of us to eternal hell, I'm doing what The Bloodhound Gang said:

    I'll spend my days with J.F.K., Marvin Gaye, Martha Raye and Lawrence Welk, and Kurt Cobain, Kojak, Mark Twain and Jimi Hendrix's poltergeist.

    Sounds fun, and I won't have to hear Falau bang on about it anymore. If he wants to preach, be a preacher. Start up a Hill Song band, Not Falau'ting The Ten Commandments.

    I'm giving a shout out seperate to the above to the current and former addicts to alcohol and other drugs (there were 8 types of people identified). At our lowest we need respect and support, and telling folks they're off to hell because of their affliction (which maybe God did or didn't do for a reason) goes against modern teachings. The current Pope has said God created everyone and loves them the way they are, heterosexual or homosexual. He preaches tolerance, forgiveness and service to the down trodden etc. Basically, the opposite of Falau. Falau might do well to reassess how he preaches his God's word.

    I don't begrudge people their faith and belief systems, but I was re-watching the war movie Jarhead the other night. One marine complains to his commanding officer that it was censorship of being told what to tell the media. The response was 'There is no such thing as speech which is free. You must pay for everything that you say.' I can't really sum it up better than that. Freedom to say something, versus, suffering consequences of saying something (ESP. When there's a contract) are very different issues.

    P.S. I'm off to his hell too. Nice to know there's a good doggies social club building there.
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

  17. #30
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    Re: The Israel Folau saga

    Quote Originally Posted by Grantysghost View Post
    Fair point if you believe in eternal damnation. How many cans of worms can we open in one debate

    Godwins law is correct. Might be my fault, I used white nationalist.....
    The actual existence of hell is less important than the idea that a particular set of people are hated by the god they believe as that opens up the door to treat them as less than human.

    The Godwins law use was just meant to create an example that anyone can agree with and see how far the commitment goes to 'free speech'.

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