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  1. #46
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    Re: Development of Players - Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMahatma View Post
    I looooove the current “develop English as a ruck by playing ruck, and Naugton as a forward by playing forward, and Shache by playing forward” idea.

    Not sure why people think we should develop English as a forward and Trengrove as a ruck....

    No issues with moving smalls around a bit, but the talls need to learn their role in the right spot (in my opinion)
    Nobody is saying English shouldn’t do ruckwork. What people are responding to is the obvious decision that English will shoulder all the ruck responsibility in all circumstances even when it will cost a significant amount of team success.

    He is certainly capable of doing most of the ruck work in some games. He will still improve his skills and be an asset by only doing some of it in others.

    The problem is not English. He is clearly one of the club’s best draft choices in decades. Everyone admires his efforts.

    The problem is what the club is doing with and to him.

    He is young and should be treated as a developing asset. And having him treated the way he was on Sunday does neither him or the supporters any good. And if he breaks down with an avoidable injury who benefits.

    This predicament is a reflection of poor planning going back beyond the start of this season.

  2. #47
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    Re: Development of Players - Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Danjul View Post
    Nobody is saying English shouldn’t do ruckwork. What people are responding to is the obvious decision that English will shoulder all the ruck responsibility in all circumstances even when it will cost a significant amount of team success.

    He is certainly capable of doing most of the ruck work in some games. He will still improve his skills and be an asset by only doing some of it in others.

    The problem is not English. He is clearly one of the club’s best draft choices in decades. Everyone admires his efforts.

    The problem is what the club is doing with and to him.

    He is young and should be treated as a developing asset. And having him treated the way he was on Sunday does neither him or the supporters any good. And if he breaks down with an avoidable injury who benefits.

    This predicament is a reflection of poor planning going back beyond the start of this season.
    The race was open as of JLT2 between Trengove and English.

    Trengove was better at the coalface, English was better around the ground. I actually think English in recent weeks has shown he can be a threat up forward and wouldn't have minded both being played as ruck/forwards but it didn't work during JLT 1 so we shelved the idea.
    Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers

  3. #48
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    Re: Development of Players - Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Mofra View Post
    The race was open as of JLT2 between Trengove and English.

    Trengove was better at the coalface, English was better around the ground. I actually think English in recent weeks has shown he can be a threat up forward and wouldn't have minded both being played as ruck/forwards but it didn't work during JLT 1 so we shelved the idea.
    The problem really is that we have two problems.

    1. Ruck theory and management.

    2. Key position theory and management.

    They have been confused and clashing for a long time.

    To this club’s detriment.

  4. #49
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    Re: Development of Players - Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Danjul View Post
    The problem really is that we have two problems.

    1. Ruck theory and management.

    2. Key position theory and management.

    They have been confused and clashing for a long time.

    To this club’s detriment.
    I don't agree at all.

    Bevo has a type of ruckman in mind that he wants, and I think it is the Grundy type, that is why we are persisting with English.
    We haven't had anyone like that for a long time. Boyd was ok to chop out in the ruck, Roughead was useless around the ground.

    KPP - well all our KPPs are 21 and under and need time to develop. Can we be a little forgiving here and develop them in the positions the club wants them to play, instead of the constant bagging?
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  5. #50
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    Re: Development of Players - Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by whythelongface View Post
    Where does this information come from? Negative coach in what way? Unhappy players- we have players that have recently signed long term contracts. I would suggest the majority of the team is happy. Of course there are some outliers, in regards to players who aren't satisfied with the amount of time spent in firsts, but one could say that about all teams. There will always be players who believe that opportunities lie elsewhere.

    Not sure what you mean by 'Sydney, Geelong and Hawthorn would not be in that position'. In terms of leadership, ladder position, player dissatisfaction?? All clubs have issues and i don't believe that there is anything different with our club than for example Sydney and Hawthorn (at present).
    Sydney are on the same amount of wins as us, and are enjoying the rebuilding narrative. They just traded out Dan Hannebury and there's talk of Papley wanting to return to Victoria mid-contract.

    Hawthorn's coach is possibly on the move, and the captain has been rubbed out for pinching and stomping. Their list has serious questions marks over it and it's felt they traded out too much leadership too early.
    Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.

  6. #51
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    Re: Development of Players - Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    I don't agree at all.

    Bevo has a type of ruckman in mind that he wants, and I think it is the Grundy type, that is why we are persisting with English.
    We haven't had anyone like that for a long time. Boyd was ok to chop out in the ruck, Roughead was useless around the ground.

    KPP - well all our KPPs are 21 and under and need time to develop. Can we be a little forgiving here and develop them in the positions the club wants them to play, instead of the constant bagging?
    Yes and no.

    I agree with your general description but not your last sentence.

    The club has had years to avoid the situation we are in. Was there really any need to find the team devoid of key components and having to wait a little longer for moderate success.

    Everything was foreseeable. The club has kept ruckmen and key position players on the books, not played them, got rid of them and not replaced them with serviceable options who could shoulder some of the load while the new generation develops.

    Develop they will. But the club has been using the same excuse, young players developing, for too long to cover too many sins.

    So no, there should be no forgiving.

    (Now we are getting the new excuse that Sydney is down the ladder with us because they are rebuilding too. So things are progressing normally. They enjoyed success for 10 years first.)

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  8. #52
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    Re: Development of Players - Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Danjul View Post
    Yes and no.

    I agree with your general description but not your last sentence.

    The club has had years to avoid the situation we are in. Was there really any need to find the team devoid of key components and having to wait a little longer for moderate success.

    Everything was foreseeable. The club has kept ruckmen and key position players on the books, not played them, got rid of them and not replaced them with serviceable options who could shoulder some of the load while the new generation develops.

    Develop they will. But the club has been using the same excuse, young players developing, for too long to cover too many sins.

    So no, there should be no forgiving.

    (Now we are getting the new excuse that Sydney is down the ladder with us because they are rebuilding too. So things are progressing normally. They enjoyed success for 10 years first.)
    It's the most convenient of excuses but inexcusable that we didn't factor it in. A number of us here on the forum raised it at the end of last season and yet we traded for mid sized players in Lloyd and Duryea.

    I think it's a weak excuse when as a club we just haven't done enough. We knew Boyd had MH issues and a back injury that cruelly curtained his 2018 season. We also knew Morris had troubles getting through 2017 and 2018 seasons with injuries playing around half the season in both years. It's a bit rich to claim injuries have been a big factor in our underperforming season when as you say it's was foreseeable.
    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

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  10. #53
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    Re: Development of Players - Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Danjul View Post
    Yes and no.

    I agree with your general description but not your last sentence.
    I was talking about right now and the position we are in.

    The KPPs are young and need time to mature. We all know they don't hit peak till at least 25.

    Talking about the past has been done to death, and I don't wish to participate in drafting and recruiting ifs and buts. If others want to fine.

    Happy to discvuss the future ifs and buts for the types of players we should be looking for.
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  11. #54
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    Re: Development of Players - Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Danjul View Post
    Yes and no.

    I agree with your general description but not your last sentence.

    The club has had years to avoid the situation we are in. Was there really any need to find the team devoid of key components and having to wait a little longer for moderate success.

    Everything was foreseeable. The club has kept ruckmen and key position players on the books, not played them, got rid of them and not replaced them with serviceable options who could shoulder some of the load while the new generation develops.

    Develop they will. But the club has been using the same excuse, young players developing, for too long to cover too many sins.

    So no, there should be no forgiving.

    (Now we are getting the new excuse that Sydney is down the ladder with us because they are rebuilding too. So things are progressing normally. They enjoyed success for 10 years first.)
    There needs to be an applaud emoticon. Excellent post and summed up my thoughts on list management perfectly. I can never put it in to words because it just infuriates me what we have done or not done.

  12. #55
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    Re: Development of Players - Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    It's the most convenient of excuses but inexcusable that we didn't factor it in. A number of us here on the forum raised it at the end of last season and yet we traded for mid sized players in Lloyd and Duryea.

    I think it's a weak excuse when as a club we just haven't done enough. We knew Boyd had MH issues and a back injury that cruelly curtained his 2018 season. We also knew Morris had troubles getting through 2017 and 2018 seasons with injuries playing around half the season in both years. It's a bit rich to claim injuries have been a big factor in our underperforming season when as you say it's was foreseeable.
    We also need to consider that we have made plays for some KPP and for whatever reason they did not come off eg. Hurley, Lever, May to name a few. It seems that we were not a destination club for these players. Whilst our stocks are down I do think that we are currently best off developing our young talls and maybe looking at some fringe talls from other clubs to fill a need over the 12 to 24 months as well as looking at drafting another KPP. Hopefully in the meantime Lewis Young develops into a consistent KPP.

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  14. #56
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    Re: Development of Players - Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    It's the most convenient of excuses but inexcusable that we didn't factor it in.
    KPPs don't grow on trees. No use drafting another tall at the end of 2018, and trading for one is almost impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by whythelongface View Post
    We also need to consider that we have made plays for some KPP and for whatever reason they did not come off eg. Hurley, Lever, May to name a few. It seems that we were not a destination club for these players. Whilst our stocks are down I do think that we are currently best off developing our young talls and maybe looking at some fringe talls from other clubs to fill a need over the 12 to 24 months as well as looking at drafting another KPP. Hopefully in the meantime Lewis Young develops into a consistent KPP.
    We certainly tried.
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  15. #57
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    Re: Development of Players - Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by whythelongface View Post
    We also need to consider that we have made plays for some KPP and for whatever reason they did not come off eg. Hurley, Lever, May to name a few. It seems that we were not a destination club for these players. Whilst our stocks are down I do think that we are currently best off developing our young talls and maybe looking at some fringe talls from other clubs to fill a need over the 12 to 24 months as well as looking at drafting another KPP. Hopefully in the meantime Lewis Young develops into a consistent KPP.
    It's an interesting point but does it support the clubs approach?
    Yes we chased Hurley as hard as we could but upon his decision to stay at the Bombers, we then traded away Hamling (for decent reasons) and did nothing to address it in 2016. How can that be explained? You chase a quality KP defender then let one go that had a terrific finals series and yet don't really get active in locating replacements. Eventually we added Trengove to the mix but originally he was supposed to be more of a forward. We then let Adams go and didn't replace him maybe because we saw the quality in Naughton but he's now a forward largely because we didn't factor in or correctly diagnose the challenges Boyd was facing
    Losing Roughead, who ironically was also used as a defender in 2018 because of injuries, also thinned the KP stocks a bit further but the question I ask is if we needed to use him as a defender for a few games in 2018 and we traded away Adams why did we think we were OK for KP depth in the backline for 2019? Now some on here have placed Roberts in departure lounge and Morris is a likely option as well.

    It's all good and well to blame injuries but to me it's becoming a cycle of excuses and a great mechanism to explain why we haven't quite measured up. I get the feeling we will be happy to do it again next season as well.

    I think I'm as passionate at building the list through the draft as anyone on here but we do need to balance thing with trades and they don't always have to be high profile ones. Trengove, Crozier, Schache, Lloyd and Duryea are all quality additions but we were light on for KP players and also players with senior footy experience and we need to be doing more.

    If we need to develop Lewis Young then he needs some exposure to the seniors, this applies to a number of players that made progress in 2018 and have not been sighted in 2019.
    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

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  17. #58
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    Re: Development of Players - Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    KPPs don't grow on trees. No use drafting another tall at the end of 2018, and trading for one is almost impossible.

    Is it supported by facts BAD?

    Fremantle got two of them, Melbourne got two of them, Gold Coast got one, Port got one, West Coast replaced one ruck man with another, Tigers got a high profile one, Saints grabbed a couple after a number of injuries, Pies, Brisbane and North added KP players from us and Carlton got one so they're are around. I'd argue that most of those clubs had a bit more KP depth than what we had before they traded for KP players.
    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

  18. #59
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    Re: Development of Players - Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    It's an interesting point but does it support the clubs approach?
    Yes we chased Hurley as hard as we could but upon his decision to stay at the Bombers, we then traded away Hamling (for decent reasons) and did nothing to address it in 2016. How can that be explained? You chase a quality KP defender then let one go that had a terrific finals series and yet don't really get active in locating replacements. Eventually we added Trengove to the mix but originally he was supposed to be more of a forward. We then let Adams go and didn't replace him maybe because we saw the quality in Naughton but he's now a forward largely because we didn't factor in or correctly diagnose the challenges Boyd was facing
    Losing Roughead, who ironically was also used as a defender in 2018 because of injuries, also thinned the KP stocks a bit further but the question I ask is if we needed to use him as a defender for a few games in 2018 and we traded away Adams why did we think we were OK for KP depth in the backline for 2019? Now some on here have placed Roberts in departure lounge and Morris is a likely option as well.

    It's all good and well to blame injuries but to me it's becoming a cycle of excuses and a great mechanism to explain why we haven't quite measured up. I get the feeling we will be happy to do it again next season as well.

    I think I'm as passionate at building the list through the draft as anyone on here but we do need to balance thing with trades and they don't always have to be high profile ones. Trengove, Crozier, Schache, Lloyd and Duryea are all quality additions but we were light on for KP players and also players with senior footy experience and we need to be doing more.

    If we need to develop Lewis Young then he needs some exposure to the seniors, this applies to a number of players that made progress in 2018 and have not been sighted in 2019.
    It's a good read of things for mine.

    On the last point, Lewis should be playing in the ones now. All young KPD get torched early, we can't protect him from that. Has to cut his teeth in the role we need from him.

  19. #60
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    Re: Development of Players - Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by whythelongface View Post
    We also need to consider that we have made plays for some KPP and for whatever reason they did not come off eg. Hurley, Lever, May to name a few. It seems that we were not a destination club for these players. Whilst our stocks are down I do think that we are currently best off developing our young talls and maybe looking at some fringe talls from other clubs to fill a need over the 12 to 24 months as well as looking at drafting another KPP. Hopefully in the meantime Lewis Young develops into a consistent KPP.
    I think there is a lot of sense in what you say.

    our probable finish to the season could give some excellent opportunities at draft time. All the excellent players we cannot attract were in the draft at some stage. And we should be able to give the next lot time to develop properly.

    I hope there are people giving that a lot of thought already.

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