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  1. #61
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    Re: I seriously dont know

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    You have backed my argument, thank you.
    Well no BAD, not quite!

    We're not coaching well, or selecting well, and the team isn't doing the basics such as bringing consistent effort each game and defending the ground with discipline. When we do these things we can compete well enough and we should be winning a bit more than we currently are.
    Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.

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  3. #62
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    Re: I seriously dont know

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozza View Post
    The best teams in the competition keep their forwards, mids and backs largely in the same areas of the ground. Sure they might move the odd player -
    Which players have moved all over the ground this season?
    FFC: Established 1883

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  4. #63
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    Re: I seriously dont know

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    I will put it more simply, we don't have the talent at this stage to win consistently.
    I don't think this is true.

    We are caught between defensive systems/philosophies...until we figure out what we want to do (or the players get on the same page with one common plan and DO IT) then we are going to be beaten.

    You can argue that West Coast have more talent than us - but you could equally argue that they don't. What they do have is a singular style of play - of having a clear structure behind the ball and a set 'shape' ahead of the ball, together with a methodical ball movement plan than ensures they ALWAYS have these things in place - that all the players have bought into.

    The capitulation yesterday was unacceptable. Once again we have conceded a MASSIVE points against score (off the back of WC kicking just 4x goals in the first HOUR of play) and until we stop the bleeding things will only get worse.

    If you read my posts on this board, I think you will find I am generally a positive and optimistic 'stick with the plan' type poster...but we cannot win conceding the points against we are conceding - no-one had better mention missing goals 'cos that isn't the problem - and it needs to be fixed and NOW!!!
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

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  6. #64
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    Re: I seriously dont know

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    If you read my posts on this board, I think you will find I am generally a positive and optimistic 'stick with the plan' type poster...but we cannot win conceding the points against we are conceding - no-one had better mention missing goals 'cos that isn't the problem - and it needs to be fixed and NOW!!!
    Totally agree with you MJP, you have convinced me on the lack of defence.

    My comment on talent was "at this stage", as I believe we still have players just not up to it, or lack of experience running around.

    eg: Ruck - English is going to be a real player for us, but he is young, inexperienced and getting belted in hitouts.
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  7. #65
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    Re: I seriously dont know

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    Ruck - English is going to be a real player for us, but he is young, inexperienced and getting belted in hitouts.
    At times but he held his own yesterday.

  8. #66
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    Re: I seriously dont know

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe Man View Post
    At times but he held his own yesterday.
    Hopefully gives him some confidence.
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  9. #67
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    Re: I seriously dont know

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    Which players have moved all over the ground this season?
    I'll list them. (And some moves I don't necessarily disagree with - such as Naughton - but making the point we are unsettled).

    Suckling performs best at half back. Was half forward yesterday and finally when moved back, got into the game.
    Bontempelli plays mid....except for huge portions against the lower sides where he has been predominently forward and we get killed on ball.
    Dunkley - forward and even ruck earlier - finally have him in the middle.
    Trengove - out of the side, then in as a defender, then a ruckman, now defender again.
    Macrae - mostly mid - but inexplicably forward in some games for large periods.
    Cordy - Mostly back....stint in the ruck. Stint forward.
    McLean - last year a 25 possession mid. Now a barely sighted forward
    Richards - All three areas of the ground.
    Libba - large chunks forward.
    Lipinski - finally breaks in, and gets thrown in as an inside mid, before now finding his proper role on a wing
    Dicko - should only be forward. Regularly found on a wing.
    Gowers - spent time as an inside mid in games (Why?)
    Naughton - back and forward.
    Bailey Williams - is a half back....some reason was inside mid in his first game back after VFL for a while.

  10. #68
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    Re: I seriously dont know

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozza View Post
    I'll list them. (And some moves I don't necessarily disagree with - such as Naughton - but making the point we are unsettled).

    Suckling performs best at half back. Was half forward yesterday and finally when moved back, got into the game.
    Bontempelli plays mid....except for huge portions against the lower sides where he has been predominently forward and we get killed on ball.
    Dunkley - forward and even ruck earlier - finally have him in the middle.
    Trengove - out of the side, then in as a defender, then a ruckman, now defender again.
    Macrae - mostly mid - but inexplicably forward in some games for large periods.
    Cordy - Mostly back....stint in the ruck. Stint forward.
    McLean - last year a 25 possession mid. Now a barely sighted forward
    Richards - All three areas of the ground.
    Libba - large chunks forward.
    Lipinski - finally breaks in, and gets thrown in as an inside mid, before now finding his proper role on a wing
    Dicko - should only be forward. Regularly found on a wing.
    Gowers - spent time as an inside mid in games (Why?)
    Naughton - back and forward.
    Bailey Williams - is a half back....some reason was inside mid in his first game back after VFL for a while.
    Bont, Dunkley, Macrae, Libba - all play mids rotating in forward line.
    Trengove - we were forced to play him ruck as Boyd retired, English had a bad corked thigh - cupboard bare.
    Cordy 5 min in ruck, although we had to throw him there against North as were being killed.
    Dicko ???
    Gowers - thrown in mid to help out - again nothing wrong with that.
    Naughton - in 11 games probably spent 5 minutes in the backline.
    Lippa - Thrown in as an inside mid? Have you been watching VFL, that is where he has been playing.
    Williams - I have only seen him play HBF this year?

    Suckling has been thrown forward to generate some goals. Maybe he should stick to the backline.

    The majority of your argument is about the mids who can't play fulltime in the middle, and need to rotate anyway. Have a look at other teams, guys like Dangerfield play forward sometimes as does Dusty and others.

    Your other argument is about rucks - if English goes down, we have no choice.

    Sorry Ozza I don't buy it, as far as I can see we have basically stuck with the same players in the same positions with players rotating through the midfield. The backline of Cordy, JJ, Wood, Daniel, Crozier, have been there the whole season. With Trengove going to ruck when English was down.
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  11. #69
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    Re: I seriously dont know

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    Bont, Dunkley, Macrae, Libba - all play mids rotating in forward line.
    Trengove - we were forced to play him ruck as Boyd retired, English had a bad corked thigh - cupboard bare.
    Cordy 5 min in ruck, although we had to throw him there against North as were being killed.
    Dicko ???
    Gowers - thrown in mid to help out - again nothing wrong with that.
    Naughton - in 11 games probably spent 5 minutes in the backline.
    Lippa - Thrown in as an inside mid? Have you been watching VFL, that is where he has been playing.
    Williams - I have only seen him play HBF this year?

    Suckling has been thrown forward to generate some goals. Maybe he should stick to the backline.

    The majority of your argument is about the mids who can't play fulltime in the middle, and need to rotate anyway. Have a look at other teams, guys like Dangerfield play forward sometimes as does Dusty and others.

    Your other argument is about rucks - if English goes down, we have no choice.

    Sorry Ozza I don't buy it, as far as I can see we have basically stuck with the same players in the same positions with players rotating through the midfield. The backline of Cordy, JJ, Wood, Daniel, Crozier, have been there the whole season. With Trengove going to ruck when English was down.
    Do you not see the issue with the instability?

    We can argue the toss over individuals roles, but the point is that we are far more unstable than other teams. Look at West Coast yesterday - at least 5 of their forwards (JK, Darling, Cripps, Rioli, Ryan) play forward 100% of the time.

    You referenced Dangerfield - he goes forward occasionally, but is on ball the vast majority of the time. Particularly now that Ablett is permanent forward, which is proving to be a good move.

    As for the comment that mids can't play there all the time....why not? Did Gaff, Shuey, Redden or Yeo go forward at all yesterday?

  12. #70
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    Re: I seriously dont know

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozza View Post
    Do you not see the issue with the instability?
    Yeah, but....

    Mclean has played almost exclusively forward - and that seems to cause people to get upset because he should be playing mid. But if he plays mid more, then someone else (Macrae, Libber, Dunks, Bont, Hunter, whoever) has to play forward more.

    I 100% get what you are saying but we all seem to want it each way on this - we want everyone settled in positions, but for that to happen we cant field a team...

    Pick our best 7 forwards - Naughton, Lloyd....who else? I guess if 'The Fergus' was fit, he could be one. Gowers maybe??? So we end up topping the forward line up with mids as they are in our best 22...but then we have McLean forward not getting as much footy as he would as a mid...

    Try doing the same with our backs and mids. That isn't as hard but the back 6 ends up pretty unbalanced...

    We have created a bit of a mess
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

  13. #71
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    Re: I seriously dont know

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post

    We have created a bit of a mess
    So what you're saying is the list is stuffed?
    Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

  14. #72
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    Re: I seriously dont know

    Quote Originally Posted by comrade View Post
    So what you're saying is the list is stuffed?
    No - I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that in 2019 you can only construct your list so many ways...West Coast are a good example. Sheed is clearly a good player, but got dropped last year because he wasn't impacting as a forward. Gaff whacks Brayshaw, there is a spot in the mids available, hey presto...then he starts this year on fire, Gaff returns from suspension, he gets spat out of the midfled...suddenly he's no good again, Redden gets injured, back in he goes...he's a gun again.

    We have: Bont, Daniel, Macrae, Hunter, Dunks, Libber, McLean and Smith who all need to play in the midfield (inside or outside, I don't care). Then you have Suckling, Richards, Williams, Dale, Lipinski and Wallis as well. Again - inside, outside or spat out either forward or back. You can add JJ to that list - and probably Crozier as well.

    They have to get the forward/mid balance right because for all of those guys to play some are going to have to play outside mid, half forward and half back. There simply isn't room for them all to play...or we adopt the West Coast model, drop half of the above group to the 2's and play a forward line consisting of forwards - Naughton, Lloyd, Gowers, Greene, Dickson, Schache and Cavarra. 'Cos that's the alternative strategy.

    If you watched yesterday, we were OK early then started getting beaten at the stoppages, so Bevo sent a 5th to the clearance, which allowed West Coast to free up Hurn...but what was the coach supposed to do? It looked like we tried to reset it towards the back end of the 3rd, but by then the press was in full effect, then we allowed Waterman to kick 3 in 3 minutes and honestly who cares what happened after that?

    Our list isn't stuffed, but if Sidebottom can spend time on a wing and at half-forward and Ablett can go forward with Selwood and Duncan being spat outside the contest, why can't McLean, Macrae, Libber, Dunkley and even Bont deal with playing outside of the contest (either outside mid or hf) for more than 5 minutes at time - have an impact, defend like their lives depend on it and maybe sneak a goal? Honestly, looking at Dunkley he just seems unable to figure it out which is (I guess) fine. Playing forward is tricky. Macrae seems to be sulking every time he goes down there. McLean at least seems enthusiastic but largely ineffective. Wallis has been good at it.
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

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  16. #73
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    Re: I seriously dont know

    Could the Bont take on M.Boyds old role instead of sending him forward send him back.
    His goal kicking has dropped off but his field kicking is very good and his lack of pace may not hurt as much.
    Don't piss off old people
    The older we get the less "LIFE IN PRISON" is a deterrent...

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  18. #74
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    Re: I seriously dont know

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    No - I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that in 2019 you can only construct your list so many ways...West Coast are a good example. Sheed is clearly a good player, but got dropped last year because he wasn't impacting as a forward. Gaff whacks Brayshaw, there is a spot in the mids available, hey presto...then he starts this year on fire, Gaff returns from suspension, he gets spat out of the midfled...suddenly he's no good again, Redden gets injured, back in he goes...he's a gun again.

    We have: Bont, Daniel, Macrae, Hunter, Dunks, Libber, McLean and Smith who all need to play in the midfield (inside or outside, I don't care). Then you have Suckling, Richards, Williams, Dale, Lipinski and Wallis as well. Again - inside, outside or spat out either forward or back. You can add JJ to that list - and probably Crozier as well.

    They have to get the forward/mid balance right because for all of those guys to play some are going to have to play outside mid, half forward and half back. There simply isn't room for them all to play...or we adopt the West Coast model, drop half of the above group to the 2's and play a forward line consisting of forwards - Naughton, Lloyd, Gowers, Greene, Dickson, Schache and Cavarra. 'Cos that's the alternative strategy.

    If you watched yesterday, we were OK early then started getting beaten at the stoppages, so Bevo sent a 5th to the clearance, which allowed West Coast to free up Hurn...but what was the coach supposed to do? It looked like we tried to reset it towards the back end of the 3rd, but by then the press was in full effect, then we allowed Waterman to kick 3 in 3 minutes and honestly who cares what happened after that?

    Our list isn't stuffed, but if Sidebottom can spend time on a wing and at half-forward and Ablett can go forward with Selwood and Duncan being spat outside the contest, why can't McLean, Macrae, Libber, Dunkley and even Bont deal with playing outside of the contest (either outside mid or hf) for more than 5 minutes at time - have an impact, defend like their lives depend on it and maybe sneak a goal? Honestly, looking at Dunkley he just seems unable to figure it out which is (I guess) fine. Playing forward is tricky. Macrae seems to be sulking every time he goes down there. McLean at least seems enthusiastic but largely ineffective. Wallis has been good at it.
    You have taken the words out of my mouth, but articulated it better.
    FFC: Established 1883

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  19. #75
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    Re: I seriously dont know

    when you should be up by 5 goals at qtr time but are not even leading it is demoralising. We need to do nothing but practice goal kicking for a month, it is beyond a joke now

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