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15-07-2019, 10:01 PM
#241
Re: WB FightBack30 V Melbourne R17 2019
Originally Posted by
Remi Moses
Staggered by the lack of scrutiny Melbourne haven’t got this year .
The fall has been dramatic , and the whole post season surgeries is this biggest cop out of all time .
In all honesty I don't think that a lot of people outside of the MSM expected them to back up after last year. When have they ever followed up a good season with another good season? They epitomize the flat track bully type of footy club in that they turn up to play when it suits them and give up all too soon when it doesn't.
The worst thing that the competition bigwigs could have done was to give them players from outside the club like May and Lever because basically it makes it too easy for them. The same as wehen the AFeL gifted them Tyson and Hogan. I'm kinda glad that the AFeL hates us when you see the ham fisted crap they come up when they support you.
They say Burt Lancaster has one, but I don't believe them.
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15-07-2019, 10:18 PM
#242
Re: WB FightBack30 V Melbourne R17 2019
Originally Posted by
Yankee Hotel Foxtrot
From Marc MacGowan - AFL website
8. Hitouts need to be ditched as a mainstream statistic
Melbourne's dual All Australian ruckman Max Gawn dined out on the Western Bulldogs for the umpteenth time on Sunday, but it was the Dogs who won the day. It's a familiar problem for Luke Beveridge and his team, with promising big man Tim English still some way from being a force in the centre. English consistently loses the hitouts by a big margin – just ask Brodie Grundy – but the Bulldogs have found a way to defy that disadvantage. Beveridge calls it being "reactively proactive", with his midfielders conditioned to having to shark the opposition's taps. The Demons won the clearances, but certainly didn't fully capitalise on the armchair ride Gawn gave them. In fact, only 12 of the 208cm ruckman's 34 hitouts were to advantage, whereas he famously had seven to advantage in one quarter against the Dogs last year. That's where hitout numbers can be deceiving, and everyone would be better off including only those to advantage. - Marc McGowan
I am not sure that I find any any justification or consolation for our ruck problem here.
we are killed in the hitouts to advantage statistic. Elite ruckmen get a bigger percentage of a bigger total. Grundy gets about one third of 50-60 hitouts or +18 against us. Gawn and Preust got 38% of 52 which is about 20. English and Trengove got 3. Good ruckmen get +10.
How much damage does one do? A huge amount. A hitout to advantage can mean an accurate 45m kick into an uncongested forward line, for example.
Grundy’s 18 are after the opposition has Sharked some taps. So it is a problem searching for a better solution.
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15-07-2019, 10:36 PM
#243
Re: WB FightBack30 V Melbourne R17 2019
Originally Posted by
Danjul
I am not sure that I find any any justification or consolation for our ruck problem here.
we are killed in the hitouts to advantage statistic. Elite ruckmen get a bigger percentage of a bigger total. Grundy gets about one third of 50-60 hitouts or +18 against us. Gawn and Preust got 38% of 52 which is about 20. English and Trengove got 3. Good ruckmen get +10.
How much damage does one do? A huge amount. A hitout to advantage can mean an accurate 45m kick into an uncongested forward line, for example.
Grundy’s 18 are after the opposition has Sharked some taps. So it is a problem searching for a better solution.
Well you keep complaining about it every week, but, there is no easy solution for 2019.
Sweet is not the solution, just not good enough, Tom Boyd is probably the player we thought would work with English, and he is gone. We don't have a backman in form so we have to stick Trengove down there.
I just don't get your point bringing up the rucks every week, even when we win.
FFC: Established 1883
Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.
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15-07-2019, 10:41 PM
#244
Re: WB FightBack30 V Melbourne R17 2019
Originally Posted by
The Bulldogs Bite
I couldn’t disagree more.
Trengove has at least 2 kicked in him by a kid (Petty), positioned himself poorly numerous times, gave away free kicks, turned it over and was lucky enough to get away with one or two late holds. He was awful.
Cordy was on Petty for two of his goals while Trengove was rucking. Bloke tries his guts out and is solid.
But then again, I'm an Internet poster and Bevo is a premiership coach so draw your own conclusions.
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16-07-2019, 12:22 AM
#245
Re: WB FightBack30 V Melbourne R17 2019
Originally Posted by
Remi Moses
Staggered by the lack of scrutiny Melbourne haven’t got this year .
The fall has been dramatic , and the whole post season surgeries is this biggest cop out of all time .
Same old. https://www.woof.net.au/forum/showth...ghlight=demons
The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride.
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16-07-2019, 01:51 AM
#246
Re: WB FightBack30 V Melbourne R17 2019
Originally Posted by
bornadog
Well you keep complaining about it every week, but, there is no easy solution for 2019.
Sweet is not the solution, just not good enough, Tom Boyd is probably the player we thought would work with English, and he is gone. We don't have a backman in form so we have to stick Trengove down there.
I just don't get your point bringing up the rucks every week, even when we win.
1. To make sure those responsible are under some pressure to make sure the problem is solved before 2020 season begins.
2. To hope someone can improve the matter slightly so our chances of winning are improved in 2019.
3. To move the discussion to a more realistic basis. For example, it does not get hidden behind the fact that English is progressing well, which he certainly is. English is not the problem and never was.
4. Because people are angry that experimentation became a substitute for management. The wooden spoon should never have been a statistical possibility 5 games ago. Supporters did not deserve that.
5. Maybe comments here lead to weaknesses being addressed. The club’s difficulties were exacerbated by the decision to leave Trengove out of the team for the first 5 games, because the culture at the club at the start of the season believed talls and rucks were optional. This led to the Carlton debacle (No Schache and no Trengove and now addressed ).
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16-07-2019, 02:07 AM
#247
Re: WB FightBack30 V Melbourne R17 2019
I guess we don't understand why you keep flogging this horse when there's been plenty of other issues that caused our malaise over the early parts of the season and continue to expose us - but you don't seem to acknowledge them. It's a bit one-track, and without wanting to sound patronising you clearly understand a lot about the game and our club but don't seem to want to see or include the various sides of our performances when appraising the results.
We get the ruck situation isn't ideal, and was clearly exposed early and continues to be. We actually all agree that it isn't sustainable if we want to take the next step.
But what we seem to see is that there's ways of trying to minimise the impact of the issue and that there are other areas we can concentrate on to increase our competitiveness irrespective of it. The club has stuffed up but is making ground up concentrating on these and those involved should get some credit for it. We've also asked of ourselves what can be done differently with the personnel we have at hand but once the issue continues to be scrutinised we collectively don't seem to be able to come up with a more viable option that will bring us to the level of competitiveness we seem to be displaying right now.
So yes, losing the hit-outs to advantage puts us back a step, but we can't do much about it without cooking other areas of the ground that seem to be functioning pretty well right now - albeit look shaky more than we would like. But what can be done about it in a material sense when we're this deep into the season? And why wouldn't we just enjoy putting some good footy together rather than worrying about the possibility that the season could be worse than it currently is.
We're eight wins and eight losses (already on as many wins as last year) and there's six to play. Green shoots are starting to turn into something more substantial from a quality perspective and we know there is plenty of talent on the list that could immediately lift and develop more strongly as the season progresses and into the future.
It's a tough competition and our young list is showing plenty of guts, is starting to bring effort across the ground each week and be more reliable compared to what it has been, and I'm really happy about that.
Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.
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16-07-2019, 02:37 AM
#248
Re: WB FightBack30 V Melbourne R17 2019
Originally Posted by
jeemak
I guess we just don't understand why you keep flogging this horse when there's been plenty of other issues that caused our malaise over the early parts of the season and continue to expose us - but you don't seem to acknowledge them.
We get the ruck situation isn't ideal, and was clearly exposed early and continues to be. We actually all agree that it isn't sustainable if we want to take the next step.
But what we seem to see is that there's ways of trying to minimise the impact of the issue and that there are other areas we can concentrate on to increase our competitiveness irrespective of it. The club has stuffed up but is making ground up concentrating on these and those involved should get some credit for it. We've also asked what can be done differently with the personnel we have at hand but once the issue continues to be scrutinised don't seem to be able to come up with a more viable option that will bring us to the level of competitiveness we seem to be displaying right now.
So yes, losing the hit-outs to advantage puts us back a step, but we can't do much about it without cooking other areas of the ground that seem to be functioning pretty well right now - albeit look shaky more than we would like.
Nice comment. A problem acknowledged is a problem on the way to being solved.
With respect to your first sentence, Not only do I acknowledge them I think they are closely related. I suspect that as the ruck improves some of our entries into the forward line will improve and our scores will improve. (And the opposition scoring will drop.)
Hope to see that soon.
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16-07-2019, 02:48 AM
#249
Re: WB FightBack30 V Melbourne R17 2019
Originally Posted by
Twodogs
In all honesty I don't think that a lot of people outside of the MSM expected them to back up after last year. When have they ever followed up a good season with another good season? They epitomize the flat track bully type of footy club in that they turn up to play when it suits them and give up all too soon when it doesn't.
The worst thing that the competition bigwigs could have done was to give them players from outside the club like May and Lever because basically it makes it too easy for them. The same as wehen the AFeL gifted them Tyson and Hogan. I'm kinda glad that the AFeL hates us when you see the ham fisted crap they come up when they support you.
I think at the end of last year they were a bit like us at the end of '92, thought they had a blip in the preliminary final and weren't too far away but were caught out by a competition that was becoming far too competitive to allow for any level of complacency.
Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.
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16-07-2019, 09:55 AM
#250
Re: WB FightBack30 V Melbourne R17 2019
Originally Posted by
Danjul
Nice comment. A problem acknowledged is a problem on the way to being solved.
With respect to your first sentence, Not only do I acknowledge them I think they are closely related. I suspect that as the ruck improves some of our entries into the forward line will improve and our scores will improve. (And the opposition scoring will drop.)
Hope to see that soon.
BTW Danjul, I enjoy reading your posts and having the discussion.
FFC: Established 1883
Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.
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16-07-2019, 12:11 PM
#251
Re: WB FightBack30 V Melbourne R17 2019
Originally Posted by
Danjul
Nice comment. A problem acknowledged is a problem on the way to being solved.
With respect to your first sentence, Not only do I acknowledge them I think they are closely related. I suspect that as the ruck improves some of our entries into the forward line will improve and our scores will improve. (And the opposition scoring will drop.)
Hope to see that soon.
Just on Ruck, interesting to note English is ahead when comparing Grundy at the same age.
Tim provides a lot around the ground and good to see Bevo recognise he is being overworked int he presser.
As posted on WB facebook group. Go Tim.
You don't develop courage by being happy in your relationships every day. You develop it by surviving difficult times and challenging adversity. ― Epicurus
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16-07-2019, 12:25 PM
#252
Re: WB FightBack30 V Melbourne R17 2019
Originally Posted by
1eyedog
Cordy was on Petty for two of his goals while Trengove was rucking. Bloke tries his guts out and is solid.
Crozier was on him for the third (holding free).
Crozier is fantastic for us but gives way more goals than Trengove does. Gave a free away late in the game too.
Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers
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16-07-2019, 12:27 PM
#253
Re: WB FightBack30 V Melbourne R17 2019
Originally Posted by
Ghost Dog
Just on Ruck, interesting to note English is ahead when comparing Grundy at the same age.
Tim provides a lot around the ground and good to see Bevo recognise he is being overworked int he presser.
As posted on WB facebook group. Go Tim.
English has improved quite a bit compared to even the early rounds. I suggest he become a much better player after just one more pre-season.
I do wonder if playing him every game he's available is a nod to both his development and our ability to retain him. He certainly is taking more marks around the ground these days which is something our coaching staff like.
Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers
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16-07-2019, 12:39 PM
#254
Re: WB FightBack30 V Melbourne R17 2019
Originally Posted by
Mofra
Crozier was on him for the third (holding free).
Crozier is fantastic for us but gives way more goals than Trengove does. Gave a free away late in the game too.
Yea but he was very stiff in that decision IIRC was a minimal holding penalty.
You don't develop courage by being happy in your relationships every day. You develop it by surviving difficult times and challenging adversity. ― Epicurus
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16-07-2019, 12:40 PM
#255
Re: WB FightBack30 V Melbourne R17 2019
Originally Posted by
Mofra
English has improved quite a bit compared to even the early rounds. I suggest he become a much better player after just one more pre-season.
I do wonder if playing him every game he's available is a nod to both his development and our ability to retain him. He certainly is taking more marks around the ground these days which is something our coaching staff like.
We are a very strong contested marking side all of a sudden. It's fun to watch.
You don't develop courage by being happy in your relationships every day. You develop it by surviving difficult times and challenging adversity. ― Epicurus