Always Right Match Committee Rd 19 vs Fremantle

[hujsh]

Just to clarify the discussion,

what would Sweet have to do (apart from 40 hitouts) to have a successful game?

I have never seen anyone define success for a Bulldog ruckman.

I think if a ruckman can't have an influence around the ground the minimum is that they negate the opposition ruckman.

[bulldogtragic]

I think if a ruckman can't have an influence around the ground the minimum is that they negate the opposition ruckman.

Yep. A good ruckman, young or old, needs to be able to have another string to their bow in addition to ruck craft. Luke Darcy could have the other guy chase him and float forward to kick a goal or two. Scott Wynd could sit in front of full forward, including Tony Lockett and intercept mark. Will Minson owing to rugby scrum game plan of BMac could make repeat efforts after the hit out (averaged 4 tackles a game in 2013), brutalise men and play huge minutes (90+% in 2013). Roughead during the finals was taking the hit outs, but then working across the ground being a target and taking contested marks.

Depending on the game style of the day and the tactics of the senior coach, what's wanted from a ruck may be the above or something else. I think it's a matter of influencing the game somehow outside a ball up/throw in.

[bornadog]

Just to clarify the discussion,

what would Sweet have to do (apart from 40 hitouts) to have a successful game?

I have never seen anyone define success for a Bulldog ruckman.

Am I reading into your post that hitouts is the measure of success for a ruckman? If so, that is very 1980s

The benchmark is Grundy, just see what he does.

[Danjul]

Am I reading into your post that hitouts is the measure of success for a ruckman? If so, that is very 1980s

The benchmark is Grundy, just see what he does.

So Sweet does not get a game until he is as good as Grundy. Fair enough.


[I checked the stats for this year:
Grundy has over 700 hitouts, the whole Bulldog team has under 400.]

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

So Sweet does not get a game until he is as good as Grundy. Fair enough.

No, but he has to not be a significant liability in other aspects of our gameplan.
Tim English may not yet be able to compete with Gawn, Grundy tapwise, but as has been highlighted by footy analysts he does compete in his movement around the ground, meaning he can run off to create or defend.
Sweet from reports does not yet have the tank to sustain movement around the ground.
He may win a heap of hit outs, and we may benefit 6-10 times directly from that. but if by his inability to cover the ground creates a dozen or more holes in our zone that are exploited, that is not a positive outcome.

[Danjul]

No, but he has to not be a significant liability in other aspects of our gameplan.
Tim English may not yet be able to compete with Gawn, Grundy tapwise, but as has been highlighted by footy analysts he does compete in his movement around the ground, meaning he can run off to create or defend.
Sweet from reports does not yet have the tank to sustain movement around the ground.
He may win a heap of hit outs, and we may benefit 6-10 times directly from that. but if by his inability to cover the ground creates a dozen or more holes in our zone that are exploited, that is not a positive outcome.

When the supporters got their first look at English playing for the Dogs in 2017 he got 7 disposals and 5 hitouts. You are saying Sweet is nowhere near that standard. I can’t argue with that.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

That's a bloody strawman argument, and if that's indicative of the level of good faith your going to bring to a discussion then have a nice day.

[Axe Man]

When the supporters got their first look at English playing for the Dogs in 2017 he got 7 disposals and 5 hitouts. You are saying Sweet is nowhere near that standard. I can’t argue with that.

I was at that game and I'm pretty sure English played forward and not in the ruck - Roughy and Tom Boyd shared ruck duties.

[bornadog]

• Dale Morris,
• Rhylee West,
• Ed Richards

OUT

• Josh Schache (Injured),
• Roarke Smith (Omitted),
• Matthew Suckling (Injured)

NEW

[bulldogtragic]

Side discussion. Genuine question. Is that the end of Roarke Smith at the dogs? If this month was his make or break time at the level, and he played one ok game in the wet, and he's now dropped. Are his papers stamped as a good VFL player?

[Axe Man]

Hayden Ballantyne back for Freo - I genuinely didn't realise he was still on their list.

[Danjul]

That's a bloody strawman argument, and if that's indicative of the level of good faith your going to bring to a discussion then have a nice day.

Not at all. The discussion was about getting a look at a recruit in his first game. I have not seen Sweet play so I don’t know how good/bad he is. You are suggesting that he will be a significant liability.

Simply for reference.....

In his first season with us Boyd averaged 8 disposals, a goal and 3 hitouts.

In his first season English was younger and got two games. Both 7 disposals and 5 hitouts. Looked promising.
In his second year he had improved to averages of 14 and 14.

Is Sweet being held to a different standard for his first game?

Or, as some say here, he is not going to get half a dozen disposals and hitouts.

[divvydan]

Assuming Lobb stays fwd all game, English will be up against both Sandi and Darcy. Likely to get monstered strength wise by both at ruck contests so he really needs to keep his distance as best as possible, then run them both off their legs after the contest. If either 2 or all 3 ruck, the big danger is how much they can work him over phyiscally.

[mjp]

Just to clarify the discussion,

what would Sweet have to do (apart from 40 hitouts) to have a successful game?

I have never seen anyone define success for a Bulldog ruckman.

It's actually a pretty good question.

The first step would be to work out whether he is leading the ruck (> 70% game time) or operating as a backup/support ruckman.

Leading the ruck:

- 50% of hitouts with 1x hit to advantage per quarter.
- 1x mark per half
- 1% count around 10-12
- Possessions in the 6-10 range with high effectiveness (he wouldn't have a kicking license so would be on a handball/kick over 40m rule I suspect.

Support role:

- 35% hitouts whilst in the ruck and 'even' at clearances.
- 3-4 marks for the game
- 6-10 possessions at high efficiency.
- 1% count in the 4-8 range (not as many clearances so tackles and blocks would drop).

Something like that?

The challenge with a player like Sweet is he is going to be like Jack Witts/Dawson Simpson were 6-8 years ago. He will win 70% of the ruck hitouts with 1-2 to advantage per quarter. But wouldn't be capable around the ground and hence couldn't play in the support role...

It is very hard for ruckman as they have no chance to develop outside of being played in the VFL. English is pretty unique at the moment in that he is getting 1st ruck development minutes in the AFL and the club is counting on two things:

1/. It works and he becomes a star.
2/. He becomes a star and stays at our footy club.

Ultimately most good ruckman are > sum of the parts/sum of the stats and sometimes the dominant ruckman in the game from a physical impact perspective appears to have lost the match-up based on the stats. Ultimately, it doesn't matter who wins the hit-out IF the other ruckman is simply contacting the arm (rather than the ball) and ensuring it doesn't get to the defined hit zone...if you compete hard, tackle and provide a strong contest for down the line kicks, what else do you really need to do???

Collingwood got an amazing game out of Grundy last week and it didn't make a lick of difference - they were smashed. Richmond are in a pretty awesome run of form with what (based on names alone) would be the worlds worst ruck division. It is a unique position and one that is particularly difficult to measure on stats alone...

[The bulldog tragician]

It's actually a pretty good question.

The first step would be to work out whether he is leading the ruck (> 70% game time) or operating as a backup/support ruckman.

Leading the ruck:

- 50% of hitouts with 1x hit to advantage per quarter.
- 1x mark per half
- 1% count around 10-12
- Possessions in the 6-10 range with high effectiveness (he wouldn't have a kicking license so would be on a handball/kick over 40m rule I suspect.

Support role:

- 35% hitouts whilst in the ruck and 'even' at clearances.
- 3-4 marks for the game
- 6-10 possessions at high efficiency.
- 1% count in the 4-8 range (not as many clearances so tackles and blocks would drop).

Something like that?

The challenge with a player like Sweet is he is going to be like Jack Witts/Dawson Simpson were 6-8 years ago. He will win 70% of the ruck hitouts with 1-2 to advantage per quarter. But wouldn't be capable around the ground and hence couldn't play in the support role...

It is very hard for ruckman as they have no chance to develop outside of being played in the VFL. English is pretty unique at the moment in that he is getting 1st ruck development minutes in the AFL and the club is counting on two things:

1/. It works and he becomes a star.
2/. He becomes a star and stays at our footy club.

Ultimately most good ruckman are > sum of the parts/sum of the stats and sometimes the dominant ruckman in the game from a physical impact perspective appears to have lost the match-up based on the stats. Ultimately, it doesn't matter who wins the hit-out IF the other ruckman is simply contacting the arm (rather than the ball) and ensuring it doesn't get to the defined hit zone...if you compete hard, tackle and provide a strong contest for down the line kicks, what else do you really need to do???

Collingwood got an amazing game out of Grundy last week and it didn't make a lick of difference - they were smashed. Richmond are in a pretty awesome run of form with what (based on names alone) would be the worlds worst ruck division. It is a unique position and one that is particularly difficult to measure on stats alone...

Love your knowledgeable contributions mjp, you always get me thinking differently about the game.