WB Game Day V Fremantle R19 2019

[Sedat]

Just keep pushing that barrow.

Dogs 14 hitouts vs Freo 55 hitouts, and yet we won the clearances 35 to 32 - that is the very definition of our mids being able to effectively shark the opposition hitouts I'd have thought.

Freo's best chance of winning was to smash us in clearances, give their forwards plenty of looks and put our defenders under pressure, and our mids were brilliant in curtailing that threat - 59 inside 50's to 44 was clear evidence of that.

I wasn't aware that stating facts was 'pushing a barrow'.

[Ozza]

Dogs 14 hitouts vs Freo 55 hitouts, and yet we won the clearances 35 to 32 - that is the very definition of our mids being able to effectively shark the opposition hitouts I'd have thought.

Freo's best chance of winning was to smash us in clearances, give their forwards plenty of looks and put our defenders under pressure, and our mids were brilliant in curtailing that threat - 59 inside 50's to 44 was clear evidence of that.

I wasn't aware that stating facts was 'pushing a barrow'.

No but you’ve decided a couple of months ago somehow that English isn’t a ruckman, he didn’t ruck as a junior and that we are flogging him too hard as a ruckman - so every time he plays against a monster ruck you have to roll it out there.

How about considering how aggressively English jumped into Sandilands which curbed his influence significantly? Because it was the most aggressive I’ve seen Tim, and it clearly had an impact on them not dominating clearances. But rather your focus is on the mids ‘saving his arse’ - to keep flogging your point.

The week before - when we got smashed, Tim was breaking square in the hit outs with Marshall - and we didn’t do any better out of the middle. And we certainly didn’t improve in that match when Trengove and others went in there and Tim forward.

What gets me about this banging on about the ruck from several posters - is that in the lead up to the Freo game, we had plenty saying that we needed to play Sweet, or that Young or Roberts should come in so that Trengove could Ruck/Forward. Freo go in with three 6”9+ blokes - and good on them - they won the hit outs - but it was like we had at least one extra at every loose ball because they can’t cover the ground. That had more to do with the 59 inside 50s to 44, than sharking 3 more clearances than we lost.

[Sedat]

No but you’ve decided a couple of months ago somehow that English isn’t a ruckman, he didn’t ruck as a junior and that we are flogging him too hard as a ruckman - so every time he plays against a monster ruck you have to roll it out there.

How about considering how aggressively English jumped into Sandilands which curbed his influence significantly? Because it was the most aggressive I’ve seen Tim, and it clearly had an impact on them not dominating clearances. But rather your focus is on the mids ‘saving his arse’ - to keep flogging your point.

The week before - when we got smashed, Tim was breaking square in the hit outs with Marshall - and we didn’t do any better out of the middle. And we certainly didn’t improve in that match when Trengove and others went in there and Tim forward.

What gets me about this banging on about the ruck from several posters - is that in the lead up to the Freo game, we had plenty saying that we needed to play Sweet, or that Young or Roberts should come in so that Trengove could Ruck/Forward. Freo go in with three 6”9+ blokes - and good on them - they won the hit outs - but it was like we had at least one extra at every loose ball because they can’t cover the ground. That had more to do with the 59 inside 50s to 44, than sharking 3 more clearances than we lost.

English lacks stoppage ruck craft - I don't think this is a secret - and it was galling earlier in the year to see him being forced to compete one-out almost all game against superior stoppage ruckmen, and this stubbornness in the coaches box was a key cause of a number of close losses in that time.

I've been heartened by the long overdue additional support English has received since the bye from the likes of Trengove and Cordy (and Schache until injured). This support has ensured he is fresher in games for longer and is thus able to better compete at stoppages (even though he is still getting well beaten). This support has also increased his ability to become more involved around the ground, where is he an absolute jet compared to less mobile opposition ruckmen - his possession count and involvement in scoring chains would have no doubt increased since the bye.

I am hoping the work we've put into him will bear fruit at stoppages in future seasons - we work awfully hard for our I50's and scoring opportunities compared to other teams, and it would be nice to be able to have a dominant stoppage asset that can feed it to our elite midfield group. It does concern me that one of the tallest players in the competition cannot get first hands to the stoppage more often - otherwise I absolutely love what English brings to the table. He is an aerobic animal who gets positively involved around the ground far more than someone his size has any right to, he is an undeniable aerial threat when pushed forward for short stints (most ruckmen look like gumbies up forward), and his hands below his knees are as good as anyone his size. I think he was poorly mistreated earlier in the season and am very happy this has been rectified.

[Danjul]

No but you’ve decided a couple of months ago somehow that English isn’t a ruckman, he didn’t ruck as a junior and that we are flogging him too hard as a ruckman - so every time he plays against a monster ruck you have to roll it out there.

How about considering how aggressively English jumped into Sandilands which curbed his influence significantly? Because it was the most aggressive I’ve seen Tim, and it clearly had an impact on them not dominating clearances. But rather your focus is on the mids ‘saving his arse’ - to keep flogging your point.

The week before - when we got smashed, Tim was breaking square in the hit outs with Marshall - and we didn’t do any better out of the middle. And we certainly didn’t improve in that match when Trengove and others went in there and Tim forward.

What gets me about this banging on about the ruck from several posters - is that in the lead up to the Freo game, we had plenty saying that we needed to play Sweet, or that Young or Roberts should come in so that Trengove could Ruck/Forward. Freo go in with three 6”9+ blokes - and good on them - they won the hit outs - but it was like we had at least one extra at every loose ball because they can’t cover the ground. That had more to do with the 59 inside 50s to 44, than sharking 3 more clearances than we lost.

We should be fielding the best possible team at every opportunity. Looking back over the season I don’t believe that the Dogs have done it. Why do I think that? Because

1. Not enough emphasis has been put on centre half back as a defensive focal point.

2. Not enough emphasis has been put on the ruck as the launching pad for crushing victories.

Well then, how is it we might make the finals?

3. Because we probably have the most talented midfielders in the competition.

Three totally different factors, but many comments use 3 to pretend that 1 and 2 never existed.

As a result we lost to Gold Coast, Carlton and Freo early in the season.
Then Grundy and Goldstein beat us. Making 5 wins we could have had.

On Sunday English played what I thought was his best game and had about the same impact as Darcy. And Sandilands had an extra 30 or so hitouts, at least a dozen to advantage that I saw.

That dozen hitouts to advantage had more impact than Richards whole game.

So lets stay real. It is a young, talented team that will only get better. Next year they should make the finals comfortably. But for supporters this year has had many scratching their heads.

[Ozza]

We should be fielding the best possible team at every opportunity. Looking back over the season I don’t believe that the Dogs have done it. Why do I think that? Because

1. Not enough emphasis has been put on centre half back as a defensive focal point.

2. Not enough emphasis has been put on the ruck as the launching pad for crushing victories.

Well then, how is it we might make the finals?

3. Because we probably have the most talented midfielders in the competition.

Three totally different factors, but many comments use 3 to pretend that 1 and 2 never existed.

As a result we lost to Gold Coast, Carlton and Freo early in the season.
Then Grundy and Goldstein beat us. Making 5 wins we could have had.

On Sunday English played what I thought was his best game and had about the same impact as Darcy. And Sandilands had an extra 30 or so hitouts, at least a dozen to advantage that I saw.

That dozen hitouts to advantage had more impact than Richards whole game.

So lets stay real. It is a young, talented team that will only get better. Next year they should make the finals comfortably. But for supporters this year has had many scratching their heads.

Who is it exactly that you think should be playing that will change our fortunes.

If you go back to the early 5-7 rounds of the season, I would agree with you on selection, and I was critical at the time about not playing Trengove in defence, and having other questionable selections and positioning of players.

But who exactly should be playing right now to have us field the best possible team? We’ve won 5 of our last 7. Bevo is coaching significantly better also. And I just can’t understand how you can watch the game that we win by 8 goals and let your ruck obsession blind you to the reality of what was happening on the field with how we exploited their lack of run. Great, they had more hit outs. We had 50 more kicks and 30 more handballs and those not only travel further than a hit out but are about three times more likely to clearly go to your team mate.
The moment that they decided to pick three lumbering ruckman was the first big win for us on the weekend.

[Danjul]

Who is it exactly that you think should be playing that will change our fortunes.

If you go back to the early 5-7 rounds of the season, I would agree with you on selection, and I was critical at the time about not playing Trengove in defence, and having other questionable selections and positioning of players.

But who exactly should be playing right now to have us field the best possible team? We’ve won 5 of our last 7. Bevo is coaching significantly better also. And I just can’t understand how you can watch the game that we win by 8 goals and let your ruck obsession blind you to the reality of what was happening on the field with how we exploited their lack of run. Great, they had more hit outs. We had 50 more kicks and 30 more handballs and those not only travel further than a hit out but are about three times more likely to clearly go to your team mate.
The moment that they decided to pick three lumbering ruckman was the first big win for us on the weekend.

So we are pretty much in agreement, our season was thrown away early.

This is elite professional sport, and we began watching experimental development.

When I pointed out that Cordy had 24 goals kicked on him in 6 games I was simply making an observation. When I say that English is beaten badly sometimes in the ruck I am again making an observation. The obsession has been with those who believe repeating poor decisions will lead to a different result.

Yes, we won by 8 goals. Yes we had 80 more possessions. Both good signs suggesting the future will be better than 2018/2019. And I was pleased to see Cordy finally get a chance to ignite the forward line (as I suggested months ago).

But no, we lost the week before to a bottom team (again). We were 50 points behind at half time. A sign that the welcome improvement is fragile. And it is good that people here are pointing out what they think might make things better.

[Bulldog4life]

So we are pretty much in agreement, our season was thrown away early.

This is elite professional sport, and we began watching experimental development.

When I pointed out that Cordy had 24 goals kicked on him in 6 games I was simply making an observation. When I say that English is beaten badly sometimes in the ruck I am again making an observation. The obsession has been with those who believe repeating poor decisions will lead to a different result.

Yes, we won by 8 goals. Yes we had 80 more possessions. Both good signs suggesting the future will be better than 2018/2019. And I was pleased to see Cordy finally get a chance to ignite the forward line (as I suggested months ago).

But no, we lost the week before to a bottom team (again). We were 50 points behind at half time. A sign that the welcome improvement is fragile. And it is good that people here are pointing out what they think might make things better.

The Saints are not a bottom team. They are a game outside the 8.

[bornadog]

So we are pretty much in agreement, our season was thrown away early.

Personally, I think the early games we lost were due to two areas. Poor defensively around the ground, and missing easy shots at goal. Nothing to do with selection of players. The players in, should have played better than they did.

Bevo made some changes to our structure and we started to defend better after the bye round and consequently we started playing more consistently over four quarters. Yes, you can thrown in the odd player here and there at the start of the season, that maybe should have been playing, but I don't believe a couple of players would have made much difference.

[Danjul]

Personally, I think the early games we lost were due to two areas. Poor defensively around the ground, and missing easy shots at goal. Nothing to do with selection of players. The players in, should have played better than they did.

Bevo made some changes to our structure and we started to defend better after the bye round and consequently we started playing more consistently over four quarters. Yes, you can thrown in the odd player here and there at the start of the season, that maybe should have been playing, but I don't believe a couple of players would have made much difference.

I could be wrong, it was a long time ago, but my anger has still not subsided from watching those early games. Even after God’s intervention in the last quarter against Hawthorn we still went unbelievably short. I nearly collapsed when I saw the team for the Carlton game.

After Trengove got 28 possessions, 25? hitouts and 2 goals for Footscray he was rewarded with another game there. The one who was promoted only needed 12 touches.

After the Carlton debacle Trengove was recalled. Some stability returned. Team selection was certainly a major factor early in year.

I do agree with you about goal kicking. Cost us dearly against Freo over there (and more recently). Definitely relevant.

Why the dramatic reversal in accuracy after half time on Sunday?

[Danjul]

The Saints are not a bottom team. They are a game outside the 8.

Thanks to us.

[mjp]

So we are pretty much in agreement, our season was thrown away early.

I am happy to acknowledge some poor results but if you want to continue to blame them on structure rather than effort then I think you are crazy.

- Gold Coast R#3? KILLED around the ball early. Players clearly didn't come to play. Careless turnovers in q2 enabled them to maintain a lead and we missed easy goals late that stopped the comeback (just) short.
- Carlton R#5? Minus 40 or something for UN-Contested possession? Mids simply did not and would not run. Wouldn't run to attack. Wouldn't run to defend. How the hell can you win a game conceding that much possession 'outside' the game?
- North and the Saints? Didn't respond to an emotional push by the opposition (that coulda/shoulda been predicted). Late comebacks in both showed we have a bit to work with, BUT not if effort isn't there...

Add even TWO of those games to the wins list and we are all thinking about the season in a positive way. At the same time, you could say we got DEADSET LUCKY with some free-kicks during the Hawthorn comeback and we clearly 'got' Richmond at the 'right' time...so maybe take TWO off the list as well....

I don't know. We have had a good season to this point and our future is 100% in our hands right now. If you do the ladder predictor then no matter what you type in as long as you select us to win each of our remaining games (the definition of it being 'in our own hands'!!) then we are playing meaningful games in September. Can we just celebrate that for a second, look forward to the Lions game (a real test against a team we have already beaten) and enjoy watching the season play out before we pre-emptively talk about 'ruining' the season back in April and May?

[1eyedog]

I frankly find the thought of a lack of effort far more galling than a lack of structure. Don't they care sometimes? Selfish footy? This smacks to me of mental issues which may be more far reaching than simply how we structure up or what player is selected to play where. I don't know maybe it's just a maturity issue.

[bornadog]

I frankly find the thought of a lack of effort far more galling than a lack of structure. Don't they care sometimes? Selfish footy? This smacks to me of mental issues which may be more far reaching than simply how we structure up or what player is selected to play where. I don't know maybe it's just a maturity issue.

You have played footy at pretty high level, and know that sometimes you are on and sometimes you are not. It is a mental thing, it has got to do with age and experience or something going on in your life. Also you may be on, but some teams mates aren't.

I think we learnt something from those early games.

[hujsh]

Maybe it's more like when you have a shit day at training and nothing works and you get frustrated which makes things worse? But spread out over the team.

[mjp]

I frankly find the thought of a lack of effort far more galling than a lack of structure.

So do I.

But go back and watch the first half of the game vs GC or the first half vs Carlton.

Allowing Sam Seaton to get 25 touches in a 1/2 of footy is NOT reflective of a structural issue.