Thanks Thanks:  23
Likes Likes:  153
Page 25 of 29 FirstFirst ... 151617181920212223242526272829 LastLast
Results 361 to 375 of 432
  1. #361
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    3,615
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Other club trade talk

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post

    When Geelong and Hawthorn are saying you can't play, you probably cant play. They know what they are doing.
    Most of the time I would agree but they've both let a few off the hook. A few that spring to mind;

    Cats let Hamling go and become a premiership player. Christensen and McCarthy have done well at the Lions.

    Hawks let Suckling and Duryea come to us and they have been good acquisitions.

    It does happen. As you said a player can work in a certain system but not in others (or something to that effect). They probably had their reasons for letting them go but we shouldn't be put off just because it's them and I'm certain our club won't be.

    We are only a couple of ruckman injuries away from being in a crises or having to resort to using our key position players or midfielders (Bont, Dunks, Jong) to do the heavy lifting. I wouldn't have a problem with giving a guy like Buzza a go. He may not get many games but would at least be depth we don't have, can challenge for a spot, but also at Footscray help form the structure around which Bevo wants the team to play.

    Well it looks like we aren't going down this path this year anyway.
    Listening to Brahm's 3rd Racket

  2. #362
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    6,624
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Other club trade talk

    Quote Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
    Most of the time I would agree but they've both let a few off the hook. A few that spring to mind;

    Cats let Hamling go and become a premiership player. Christensen and McCarthy have done well at the Lions.

    Hawks let Suckling and Duryea come to us and they have been good acquisitions.

    It does happen. As you said a player can work in a certain system but not in others (or something to that effect). They probably had their reasons for letting them go but we shouldn't be put off just because it's them and I'm certain our club won't be.
    While I agree with Hamling, Christensen and McCarthy I don't think Suckling and Duryea are fair comparisons.

    Suckling was an unrestricted free agent and Hawthorn had no means to keep him once we signed him up, and Duryea was a trade, not a delisting, which tells me Hawthorn had acknowledged that he could play but was probably going to fall back a bit in their pecking order.

  3. #363
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    3,615
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Other club trade talk

    Quote Originally Posted by westdog54 View Post
    While I agree with Hamling, Christensen and McCarthy I don't think Suckling and Duryea are fair comparisons.

    Suckling was an unrestricted free agent and Hawthorn had no means to keep him once we signed him up, and Duryea was a trade, not a delisting, which tells me Hawthorn had acknowledged that he could play but was probably going to fall back a bit in their pecking order.
    they let them go is my point. I don't think they fought hard to keep any of them.
    Listening to Brahm's 3rd Racket

  4. #364
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    6,624
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Other club trade talk

    Quote Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
    they let them go is my point. I don't think they fought hard to keep any of them.
    And mine is that, in Suckling's case at least, there was no fight to be had.

  5. #365
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    West of somewhere.
    Posts
    6,147
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Other club trade talk

    Quote Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
    they let them go is my point. I don't think they fought hard to keep any of them.
    That’s fair enough. McCarthy I think they liked but he couldn’t stay on the park. Christensen was a $ decision but he hasn’t been a senior team regular over the last couple of years...I would guess he has played 50% of games at BL?

    With Buzza (and Abbott for that matter) the Cats showed what they thought of them in the finals when Hawkins was out. I understand no-one trading for them but am fascinated where Buzza thinks he is going to play at Port? Not forward. And not ruck. And not back...so...

    I guess all of these picks are depth, pure and simple. OK In a moneyball sense I guess...but money ball wasn’t about depth - it was about value. Where is the value of Jack Newnes getting $250k to play half back when pick#9 could do that for half the price with scope to improve.

    Recruiting reserves players only helps build your reserves.
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

  6. Likes bornadog liked this post
  7. #366
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    3,615
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Other club trade talk

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    Where is the value of Jack Newnes getting $250k to play half back when pick#9 could do that for half the price with scope to improve.

    Recruiting reserves players only helps build your reserves.
    agree with that and I would be furious is the Dogs did something like that.

    I'm all for building from the ground up or in other words through the draft. Always have been. Just sometimes a bit of treasure can be found in the most unlikely places.
    Listening to Brahm's 3rd Racket

  8. Likes Testekill liked this post
  9. #367
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Doglands
    Posts
    39,484
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Other club trade talk

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    Not me. Who amongst those names is going to contribute in a meaningful way?

    Gray and Newnes are just good enough to keep a kid out of the side. Buzza and Brand aren't good enough to get into the side.

    When Geelong and Hawthorn are saying you can't play, you probably cant play. They know what they are doing. Gray and Newnes? They are limited players of the type you are always going to be trying to replace...to me the Power and Saints have acknowledged this by moving them along (and Sydney and Carlton have erred in selecting them).
    Buzza is a project player who's best football should be in front of him
    I've seen Brand play some good games and if he gets over the injuries he could be a bargain for the Swans but it's a risk
    I think you are underrating Gray just a bit and Newnes might get that 2nd club spark with his footy career
    I honestly think this whole "keep the kids out of the side" is an overrated thought process. The best players play or at least they should. If youngsters need another season then clubs need to be patient

    Clubs need to have a plan with youngsters, ironically the Cats do. We missed a golden opportunity this year to continue development of the likes of Lynch and Lewis Young from their previous seasons and it wasn't because we brought in other players that stunted their development to me it was potentially a lack of planning or at least we failed to introduce some of the players back into the side for an extended run when we could have

    The likes of Gray and Newnes might need to step aside from time to time as part of a development plan for some younger players but
    that is the role they should be prepared to take
    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

  10. #368
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    5,048
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Other club trade talk

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    Not me. Who amongst those names is going to contribute in a meaningful way?

    Gray and Newnes are just good enough to keep a kid out of the side. Buzza and Brand aren't good enough to get into the side.

    When Geelong and Hawthorn are saying you can't play, you probably cant play. They know what they are doing. Gray and Newnes? They are limited players of the type you are always going to be trying to replace...to me the Power and Saints have acknowledged this by moving them along (and Sydney and Carlton have erred in selecting them).
    I agree with this.

    Hawthorn got rid of Brand despite numerous chances and have effectively decided that Sam Frost is a better option.

    While Geelong have opted for Josh Jenkins at the wrong end of the age scale over Buzza.

    Both decisions are pretty damning on the outgoing players.

    Gray and Newnes are just depth and won't be the difference for a rise up the ladder.
    Life is to be Enjoyed not Endured

  11. #369
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Doglands
    Posts
    39,484
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Other club trade talk

    Quote Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
    agree with that and I would be furious is the Dogs did something like that.

    I'm all for building from the ground up or in other words through the draft. Always have been. Just sometimes a bit of treasure can be found in the most unlikely places.
    When you look at our club I think we have a strong record that supports the draft first and build from the ground up approach but also supported by some lower risk additions from other clubs.

    Every now and then though you have to reset and it's why I think so many of us are very happy to have spent some picks on 2 established key position players this year but also maintaining our first round pick. Well done Sam Power and team

    It's going to be a quiet draft night for us with just a couple of picks but are well placed for the 2020 season
    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

  12. #370
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    9,574
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Other club trade talk

    Good discussions. What category does Lloyd fall into? Realise he's not a DFA, but not dissimilar to Gray (other than having played significantly less senior footy) and moving from a club that "knows what it's doing".

  13. #371
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Wherever the dogs are playing
    Posts
    60,862
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Other club trade talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Go_Dogs View Post
    Good discussions. What category does Lloyd fall into? Realise he's not a DFA, but not dissimilar to Gray (other than having played significantly less senior footy) and moving from a club that "knows what it's doing".
    Sometimes a player like Lloyd can't get a regular game due to the number of players in a club that are very similar. These are the ones you want from other clubs, because they are not getting an opportunity, but can fulfill a need from another club.
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  14. #372
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    West of somewhere.
    Posts
    6,147
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Other club trade talk

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    Buzza is a project player who's best football should be in front of him
    I've seen Brand play some good games and if he gets over the injuries he could be a bargain for the Swans but it's a risk
    I think you are underrating Gray just a bit and Newnes might get that 2nd club spark with his footy career
    I honestly think this whole "keep the kids out of the side" is an overrated thought process. The best players play or at least they should. If youngsters need another season then clubs need to be patient

    Clubs need to have a plan with youngsters, ironically the Cats do. We missed a golden opportunity this year to continue development of the likes of Lynch and Lewis Young from their previous seasons and it wasn't because we brought in other players that stunted their development to me it was potentially a lack of planning or at least we failed to introduce some of the players back into the side for an extended run when we could have

    The likes of Gray and Newnes might need to step aside from time to time as part of a development plan for some younger players but
    that is the role they should be prepared to take
    Cheers for the reply.

    I just want to focus in on Gray, Newnes (and by extension Lloyd) and the concept of 'experienced players holding out draftees'. Despite the nature of my post, I think you know I agree that the players who deserve to play based on form/training performances etc need to play regardless of age/experience etc. And the whole idea of an experienced player 'holding out' a young player is therefore invalid...

    BUT.

    First off, I would never have recruited Lloyd to our club. To be perfectly honest, I still don't really 'get it' - and I feel the same way about Newnes and Gray. To me each of these players are 'good' AFL players when looked at in isolation - but they are:

    1/. Limited in the roles they can play.
    2/. Replacement level players.

    By this I mean they are effectively 1-position players (you could argue Newnes could play wing AND half-back I guess) which reduces the flexibility of the squad AND limits the ability of the MC to bring in another player to the side who has a similar 'lack' of positional flexibility.

    Rather than use the Gray/Newnes examples, let me focus on Lloyd. He can ONLY play forward. When we were trying to find a spot for Dale - it kind of wasn't working. Lloyd was playing, Dale wasn't - and it was really as simple as that. So we were trying to slide spare mids into the forward line (Liber and Macrae and Dunks all say hello) and it really was square peg/round hole stuff. Now - you will say that is because those players are 'equally inflexible'...but they kind of aren't. They can play forward - but only for short stints...but it is hard to work that when you have a 7 or 8 player mid rotation and a 6 player forward rotation - someone ALWAYS ends up getting spat out of the mids into the forwards. If Lloyd was more flexible and could take a turn on the wing or inside - even for just 5 mins - it would really open up the rotations which would add to the flexibility of the squad.

    Now everyone is going to say "that's bs. Just send the message out to make a change" - aahhhh - good luck with that. Firstly, who's going to deliver that message? Secondly, the players just have to roll to the bench when they get a moment - and the rotations get set pretty quickly. Basically, you can only have 'so many' specialists in any team and Lloyd contributes to us exceeding that number - Newnes and Gray will do likewise to Carlton and Sydney.

    Point 2 was 'replacement level'. Now, I guess you could argue that Lloyd is 'better' than replacement level and he missed at Richmond due to his poor ==> appalling levels of defensive pressure and seeming inability to see anything but the goals when inside forward 50m. And you might have a point. But Newnes and Gray aren't. I think Sydney - in Heeney and Papley - already have two better versions of Gray than Gray. Where is he going to play??? Where does that leave Ronke (or however you spell it). Carlton have Doherty coming back and Simpson running around again. Where is Newnes going to play? As I harped on about last pre-season when everyone was doing their 'best 22' sides, you had better put Lloyd in it - we went and got him, he is going to play. Where are these guys going to play for their new clubs and who exactly are they better than?

    Now, I get it when you are saying I might be under-rating Gray - I'm happy with that. But Port had zero room for him - Rozee and Butters are better than he is (already). Plus they want Robbie Gray spending time down there...he is insurance only...if he is insurance only at Sydney, well, he is a 29 year old insurance policy.

    You could also argue that Carlton got Newnes 100% for insurance - they let Thomas go and Docherty is no guarantee to return adfter back-to-back recons...but again - he is a 29 yo insurance policy. They may as well have just kept Thomas...supposedly they let him go because he was too old and only wanted to offer one deal out of him and Simpson...but then they select Newnes? I am baffled by this.

    I am rambling now but at least our recruiting this year - no matter how much I disagree with the Keath selection since I think he is the same player as Le Young...and Le Young is a taller version of the best version of Easton Wood and hence I don't know where they are all going to play...but at least it was targeted at one of thee two positional needs identified by the club - key position defender...but a better example of good recruiting of a mature player is (for me) Trengove. He can play multiple roles with reasonable effectiveness and is a good clubman. That's what you want - someone who ADDS to your list. Someone who is going to make a strong and positive impact around the club and on game-day.

    With Newnes and Gray I just don't get it. I don't get it and I don't see it.
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

  15. Thanks GVGjr, Remi Moses, jeemak, Smads57, macca thanked for this post
    Likes bornadog, Bulldog Joe liked this post
  16. #373
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Doglands
    Posts
    39,484
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Other club trade talk

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post

    I am rambling now but at least our recruiting this year - no matter how much I disagree with the Keath selection since I think he is the same player as Le Young...and Le Young is a taller version of the best version of Easton Wood and hence I don't know where they are all going to play...but at least it was targeted at one of thee two positional needs identified by the club - key position defender...but a better example of good recruiting of a mature player is (for me) Trengove. He can play multiple roles with reasonable effectiveness and is a good clubman. That's what you want - someone who ADDS to your list. Someone who is going to make a strong and positive impact around the club and on game-day.

    With Newnes and Gray I just don't get it. I don't get it and I don't see it.
    Thanks for the detailed response, at this time to the year we have to hope for quality over quantity post wise and yours is the quality addition to discussion
    I'll respond to the rest of your post a bit later but I wanted to focus on the quoted section first and the observations you have made

    I get our strong interest in Keath, it's a great news story and one that addresses the need for a key position defender. In other words it's an easy sell to our membership base who identified for most of the year that we were light on for KPP.
    I've made quite a few references in recent weeks however, that he isn't a strong one-on-one defender and that he was in some way a duplication on Lewis Young. It's also something that surprises me a little when I've been reading suggestions for the round one team for the 2020 season.
    I don't get how we can play 3 defenders in Keath, Lewis Young and Easton Wood given their best attributes are as intercept defenders
    At the very least Cordy and/or Trengove have to play. I also don't get how so many of us have dropped off Trengove after what I thought was a good season by him once we saw the better sense in selecting him.
    I won't go over my concerns on Wood again but he will play and I think that leaves Lewis Young struggling for a spot as a defender
    unless he or Keath and make an adjustment to the way they naturally play

    Regarding Gray and Newnes I get the concerns but I don't think either of them as an issue for Sydney or Carlton.
    If they play well they can get selected, if younger players perform better then they will have to bide their time
    Sydney have a good record in bringing in players from other clubs, they must see something decent in Gray
    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

  17. #374
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    West of somewhere.
    Posts
    6,147
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Other club trade talk

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    T
    I get our strong interest in Keath, it's a great news story and one that addresses the need for a key position defender. In other words it's an easy sell to our membership base who identified for most of the year that we were light on for KPP.
    I've made quite a few references in recent weeks however, that he isn't a strong one-on-one defender and that he was in some way a duplication on Lewis Young. It's also something that surprises me a little when I've been reading suggestions for the round one team for the 2020 season.
    I don't get how we can play 3 defenders in Keath, Lewis Young and Easton Wood given their best attributes are as intercept defenders
    At the very least Cordy and/or Trengove have to play. I also don't get how so many of us have dropped off Trengove after what I thought was a good season by him once we saw the better sense in selecting him.
    I won't go over my concerns on Wood again but he will play and I think that leaves Lewis Young struggling for a spot as a defender
    No "concerns" my end about what Carlton and Sydney are doing - I just think they are making a mistake.

    With Keath - and I want to be careful to say up front that I liked watching him play this year - but (like you) I think he does have some deficiencies...and they are the same deficiencies as two of our other defenders. You could also argue that Crozier plays his 'best' footy as an intercept player (though he is pretty solid 1-v-1) AND that JJ is at his best when he doesn't have to 'stress' about his opponent at all...and that so much ANGST amongst 'us' as supporters was caused by Caleb Daniel being caught 1-out down back...and he is likely to play down there again...

    This situation reminds me a little of Essendon recruiting Shiel last year. All through the trade period they 'needed' another mid. They bid for Shiel, they 'got' Shiel, Shiel was going to be 'the difference'. Meanwhile, very quietly Champion Data and some GWS officials were quietly (but persistently) saying that he is a good player, but he turns it over a bit. Then he turned it over by foot on ANZAC Day and it seemed the whole world turned on him and suddenly Essendon - who 'won' the trade - had been gyped and sold 'damaged goods' or whatever.

    Keath is going to have to play 1-v-1 footy (at times) for us. We were 17th in terms of scores conceded to opposition bigs inside 50m. 'SOMEONE' is going to have to solve that problem if we want to have the season we 'say' we want. Someone is going to have to actually play on Lynch and Reiwoldt, on Hawkins and Jenkins, on Kennedy and Darling in games that 'matter'. Keath is going to have to take 'one' of those players - he just is. Young is going to have to take another. Or maybe we use Young and Cordy and Keath 'purely' intercepts...but in a 6-6-6 situation he is going to have a match-up and he is going to have to win it.
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

  18. Likes bornadog, Sedat liked this post
  19. #375
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,943
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Other club trade talk

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    Sometimes a player like Lloyd can't get a regular game due to the number of players in a club that are very similar. These are the ones you want from other clubs, because they are not getting an opportunity, but can fulfill a need from another club.
    Yep, its happened with a few clubs
    Darren jolly and Stephen Martin . Ironically they became 2 very good ruckman
    Hamling behind Taylor, Henderson , Corey enright, Blicavs, horlin-smith

    I wonder who could be in the “cannot get a game “ due to strong depth for next year ?
    I thought Dan butler would be one to get , for small fwd, but we already have a few emerging there .

    surprised that lewis Taylor picked up. slow , poor kick but I Guess can seem to find the ball.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •