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Thread: St Kilda

  1. #61
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    Re: St Kilda

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogtragic View Post
    Josh Bruce - Go find another club, like now.
    Paddy McCartin - For your own good, you're delisted.
    Max King - I know you haven't played a single game, I know you've done an ACL, but no pressure you're the one.
    Josh Battle - 11 goals in three years as mainly a defender, but no pressure but you are also the one as a KPF.
    Paddy Ryder - We expect you to kick a goal this season for every birthday you've had. 43.
    Tim Membrey - It's all on you.


    Really? They knew McCartin was going, they knew Battle has limited games and more limited goals, they knew King has yet to debut, they know Ryder isn't what he used to be. And the priority was moving out Bruce so they could bring in Zac Jones?

    Don't get me me wrong I'm very happy for us, but if I was a St Kilda member I'd be wondering what the hell is going on here. Leaving aside 12 outgoing players.
    Sometimes a crisis creates opportunities
    12 months earlier we backed Tom Boyd to play two key roles for us in 2019 (key forward and 2nd ruckman) knowing full well of his mental health challenges and the fact that his 2018 season was curtailed by a back injury and that didn't eventuate. We were lucky we sent a 19yo forward at late notice in a JLT game even though he worked with the defenders all summer and it ended up working out exceptionally well for us.
    My biggest bugbear is that many clubs just don't plan for injuries or the loss of players even when they are clearly struggling.

    The Saints at least now have some time to review their list
    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

  2. #62
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    Re: St Kilda

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogtragic View Post

    Don't get me me wrong I'm very happy for us, but if I was a St Kilda member I'd be wondering what the hell is going on here. Leaving aside 12 outgoing players.
    I don’t know. I think St Kilda members would be a bit energised. At least they’re having a go...surely the alternative (rolling it back, using pick 6 etc) wasn’t too appealing to supporters. Slightly off topic but I don’t get the angst about Ryder. His old man played past 50...i’m Sure that he’ll be fine.
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

  3. #63
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    Re: St Kilda

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    I don’t know. I think St Kilda members would be a bit energised. At least they’re having a go...surely the alternative (rolling it back, using pick 6 etc) wasn’t too appealing to supporters. Slightly off topic but I don’t get the angst about Ryder. His old man played past 50...i’m Sure that he’ll be fine.
    In isolation perhaps, some bigger names is a nice sugar high. There seems to me a lack of coherent strategy to me. Moving out future 2nd and 3rds last year. Last year one pick under Pick 40 (Max King). This year no picks under Pick 50. Next year no picks probably inside 60. I'm not convinced they have the quality in the younger players to be avoiding the draft like Donald Trump and his 'bone spurs'. That's worrying to me.

    Their defence looks better for Howard, but I doubt if Nathan Brown or Jake Carlisle are on their list by the end of next year. They want to move Battle forward, but we don't know for certain this will work. Max King is the chosen one and hasn't played a game yet. He may well be the one, but it's a gamble. So forcing Josh Bruce out when they knew McCartin was all but certain to be delisted seems short sighted or confusing.

    The decision to move on 12 players out the door in one swoop is potentially dangerous. The last team to do it was Carlton under Malthouse who did a bit the same with Jaksch, Whiley, Jones, Tutt etc. etc. Their fans loved the aggressive stance which stimulated membership and interest. That's now considered the worst trade and draft period ever. I'm not suggesting that's staring down St Kilda, as Hill and Howard seem like good gets. The salary cap of circa $2.5M for the players seems a bit of overs.

    So I still see a problem with one pick inside the top 40-60 for a three year period and a huge dump of 12 outs this year, including their best current KPF despite knowing McCartin was going too. If they had a solid group of top end kids (ie Naughton, Smith, English, Dunkley being added to say Bonts, Macrae, Schache etc) then I could understand them bypassing the draft and topping up at a flag. I just find most of what they've been doing confusing. If it works out for them, then good for them. But I don't see the lack of balance around their list for this three year block doing good things for them longer term. The sugar high is fine, but in say 3-4 years if they're still struggling away the review will look at many years bypassing the good end of the draft and the other list issues apparent.
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

  4. #64
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    Re: St Kilda

    I don’t disagree.

    But for most saints people - coming off the Watters and Richardson years - they want to see a new and bold approach. They don’t want to finish 13th. They dont want the hope of the next first round pick, they want the certainty of Hill and Jones...they want to see the club spending the money in the cap to get better...

    I wouldn’t do it but I understand what they are trying.
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

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  6. #65
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    Re: St Kilda

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    I don’t disagree.

    But for most saints people - coming off the Watters and Richardson years - they want to see a new and bold approach. They don’t want to finish 13th. They dont want the hope of the next first round pick, they want the certainty of Hill and Jones...they want to see the club spending the money in the cap to get better...

    I wouldn’t do it but I understand what they are trying.
    That’s why I’m glad I’ll never ever run a footy club. It must be a very hard gig to balance what you ‘need’ now to keep your people enthused and engaged versus what you ‘need’ for the longer term. Especially if there’s a divergence. North in a similar spot went the opposite way. Tough gig to balance all the ‘needs’ at a club.
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

  7. #66
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    Re: St Kilda

    I hope all the best for Mc cartin , as the head injuries are series for him to make such a call and priority
    Bruce must be relieved
    His got schache and naughton as the two towers and some good crumbers at his feet and potentially even more if cavarra can debut
    And west to play more games.
    I’m looking forward to our fowrd line next season and Bruce kicking 50+ goals
    Last edited by macca; 28-10-2019 at 11:36 AM.

  8. #67
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    Re: St Kilda

    I don't disagree BT, and i think my point supports your argument, but Battle was fantastic in defence this season and i expect they see his future there. Also explains his low goal tally.
    I should leave it alone but you're not right

  9. #68
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    Re: St Kilda

    Also i get their change of tact.

    The Saints have spent pretty much every year since Lyon left rebuilding "the right way" via the draft and have been largely poor.

    Despite it being the prevailing mentality in AFL i dont believe clubs need to always be building towards a flag. The Saints recruits put them into a position where they have more quality on the list. I think theoretically it bring their base performanc level up higher, and solidifies their position as being at least a mid tier team.

    They can sit on that for a year or two and then build from there, instead of another false start rebuild.
    I should leave it alone but you're not right

  10. #69
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    Re: St Kilda

    Quote Originally Posted by soupaman View Post
    I don't disagree BT, and i think my point supports your argument, but Battle was fantastic in defence this season and i expect they see his future there. Also explains his low goal tally.
    Yep, you can reply all the time!

    Some of the trade radio/ trade podcasts talked about Howard releasing Battle to go back forward. That’s assuming Carlisle can get back on the park. Let’s say he stays back, there’s just Membrey and King (who hasn’t played a game) as genuine forwards with McCartin cut & Bruce shoved out. Knowing they were moving on McCartin, the move to push Bruce out is either strange, or a reflection of poor list management where the constant trade of decent picks leaves them no options to move out a quality player.

    Whatever their strategy is, to get Bruce whose career stats aren’t far off Joe Daniher for just a second and third rounder makes us a beneficiary of their strategy. I’m thankful for that.

    Back to us, I can now even more appreciate what our recruiters and list managers have been doing. That is, laying the foundation, getting elite draftsmen, putting the frame up, getting the blue collar trades to do blue collar things, putting the roof up and now working on finishing ($700,000 under budget). Good to be us.
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

  11. #70
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    Re: St Kilda

    Saints first round drafting has been very weak and they have traded away their first rounder a few times.

    2012 0
    2013 Jack Billings Luke Dunstan Blake Acres, now Freo
    2014 Patrick McCartin Hugh Goddard Now Carlton
    2015 Jade Gresham
    2016 0
    2017 Hunter Clark Nicholas Coffield
    2018 Jack Mayo Max King Zero games

    2012, 2016 and now 2019 no picks. 2014 unlucky with McCartin, 2018 yet to play.

    They have tried their luck a few times to trade for stars, but their list is in my opinion still not where it should be.

    However, Saints fans will be happy they have traded for some players and that will give them hope.
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  12. #71
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    Re: St Kilda

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    Saints first round drafting has been very weak and they have traded away their first rounder a few times.

    2012 0
    2013 Jack Billings Luke Dunstan Blake Acres, now Freo
    2014 Patrick McCartin Hugh Goddard Now Carlton
    2015 Jade Gresham
    2016 0
    2017 Hunter Clark Nicholas Coffield
    2018 Jack Mayo Max King Zero games

    2012, 2016 and now 2019 no picks. 2014 unlucky with McCartin, 2018 yet to play.

    They have tried their luck a few times to trade for stars, but their list is in my opinion still not where it should be.

    However, Saints fans will be happy they have traded for some players and that will give them hope.
    2019: No picks inside 50
    2020: One pick inside 60

    2012-2020 looks erratic at best. Add in targeting known injury cases like Carlisle & Hannerbury, while trading mature players out like Bruce, Steven, Hickey, Acres, Newnes.

    As you say, if they have hope now then good luck to them. But I wouldn't want to inherit that list in a few years.
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

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  14. #72
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    Re: St Kilda

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogtragic View Post
    2019: No picks inside 50
    2020: One pick inside 60

    2012-2020 looks erratic at best. Add in targeting known injury cases like Carlisle & Hannerbury, while trading mature players out like Bruce, Steven, Hickey, Acres, Newnes.

    As you say, if they have hope now then good luck to them. But I wouldn't want to inherit that list in a few years.

    It's a bold strategy that's for sure. Saints supporters I've spoken to are all for it as they believe their list was very b or c grade weighted. My own opinion as someone who is a little on the conservative side is that it's too deep a cut. Bruce is especially fascinating. They've really got no cover. Membrey? As BT has exposed earlier this is a real crack at it now and it does make me think that guys like Lethlean and Finnis are disruptive executives in philosophy which may be what they need. I'm very interested to see how it all plays out.

  15. #73
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    Re: St Kilda

    I'm not sure they shoved Bruce out. He was contracted and wanted an extension on reasonable dollars which St Kilda weren't willing to do at this stage. Every chance he stayed and got a one or two year extension, but player wanted more security and club were prepared to facilitate.

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  17. #74
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    Re: St Kilda

    Quote Originally Posted by Go_Dogs View Post
    I'm not sure they shoved Bruce out. He was contracted and wanted an extension on reasonable dollars which St Kilda weren't willing to do at this stage. Every chance he stayed and got a one or two year extension, but player wanted more security and club were prepared to facilitate.
    He may have wanted to play with a club that actually wins things too. That ain't ever going to happen at St Kilda. Certainly not in the next few years.

    We can at least offer him the chance of dancing on the dais in September. .
    Have you been reading those Roddy Doyle books again, Dougal!?


    I have, yeah Ted, you big gobshite

  18. #75
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    Re: St Kilda

    What a dumpster fire...

    - Frawley, Carlisle, McKernan & Ryder surely can’t go on. Four KPPs.
    - Big money tied up in Hill & Crouch, not commensurate to their output.
    - Hannebery is over 30 and hasn’t played this year.
    - Howard is an expensive option when their mids won’t defend to help him out.
    - Geary is 33 in two months.
    - One draft pick inside the top 40 this year.
    - Questions over their fragility.
    - While exiting Bruce & Hickey for not huge return.

    Their list manager would be sacked for either horrifically misjudging their list, or worse, he knew but wanted to go full Dodoro to win trade weeks. What they have proactively created is about as bad a situation that I could hypothesise. I can’t work out if they’ll double down or try to rebuild which means they let some free agents go like Billing’s. They’re on their way back into no mans land they’ve been in for a decade.
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

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