St Kilda

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Yeah they’ve gone for shallow wins to attract excitement and attention over building a list that sustains success over the long term.

They surprised me last year. I kept thinking there’s no way this list can be any good. Not even a 1 year blip. I suppose the COVID shortened quarters helped them a bit. Now they’re back to where I expected them.

[DOG GOD]

The Marshall/Ryder combo were the reason that were so good last year, and the years that their recruits had in Hill, Jones, Butler and Howard.

Last night as good as we were, they were really pathetic, and after those 2 shanks from set shots, they truly dropped their heads and we went in for the kill. Last year they played as a team. This year, nothing like it.

[GVGjr]

What a dumpster fire...

- Frawley, Carlisle, McKernan & Ryder surely can’t go on. Four KPPs.
- Big money tied up in Hill & Crouch, not commensurate to their output.
- Hannebery is over 30 and hasn’t played this year.
- Howard is an expensive option when their mids won’t defend to help him out.
- Geary is 33 in two months.
- One draft pick inside the top 40 this year.
- Questions over their fragility.
- While exiting Bruce & Hickey for not huge return.

Their list manager would be sacked for either horrifically misjudging their list, or worse, he knew but wanted to go full Dodoro to win trade weeks. What they have proactively created is about as bad a situation that I could hypothesise. I can’t work out if they’ll double down or try to rebuild which means they let some free agents go like Billing’s. They’re on their way back into no mans land they’ve been in for a decade.

Add Daniel Hannebery as someone tied up with a lot of salary as well and he is signed until the end of 2023.

[bornadog]

Yeah they’ve gone for shallow wins to attract excitement and attention over building a list that sustains success over the long term.

They surprised me last year. I kept thinking there’s no way this list can be any good. Not even a 1 year blip. I suppose the COVID shortened quarters helped them a bit. Now they’re back to where I expected them.

In a way I don't count last year. 17 games only with 5 short of a full season, anything could have happened in those 5 games.

My post (number 70) shows how they have not built a proper foundation of young talent coming through, and then topped with some established players.

[Happy Days]

They tried to queue jump on the back of hitting the draft hard for years because that's where the state of their list should have been at, but they've vastly overestimated the quality of their top picks and it's going to end them for years.

Of all their top picks I can't think of one of any real quality. King will probably end up very good but isn't right now (despite what the state-controlled media will tell you), Clark is nothing more than okay, Coffield can't get a game, Gresham is never out there, and so on. They need to make some changes in their recruitment staff and fast, and probably try to get off some of these horrible contracts they've subjected themselves to.

[jeemak]

What's happened over the past year or so was a classic sugar hit, whereby you had all of Ryder, Butler, Marshal, Hannebury, Jones and Hill etc. coming in and playing as well as they all could at the same time.

Given our cycles were relatively aligned post the 2008-2012 period it satisfies me knowing that after that time we've rebuilt, won a flag, rebuilt/ partially rebuilt (or whatever GVGjr will allow me to call it ) and seem to be doing better than they are again - albeit having lost a final to them last year.

Ratten has a huge task on his hands.

[bulldogtragic]

What's happened over the past year or so was a classic sugar hit, whereby you had all of Ryder, Butler, Marshal, Hannebury, Jones and Hill etc. coming in and playing as well as they all could at the same time.

Given our cycles were relatively aligned post the 2008-2012 period it satisfies me knowing that after that time we've rebuilt, won a flag, rebuilt/ partially rebuilt (or whatever GVGjr will allow me to call it ) and seem to be doing better than they are again - albeit having lost a final to them last year.

Ratten has a huge task on his hands.

You think Ratten will be around. With the way players refused to chase, run to the next contest, stand on our goal line to touch at least of Goals they could’ve touched, and the shit body language and at times open disinterest, I’m waiting for the questions about whether he’s ‘lost the players’. They need a patsy to take the fall for the members, he’s as good as any. The fact being the list manager, his team and relevant committee people should all be sacked right now.

[jeemak]

You think Ratten will be around. With the way players refused to chase, run to the next contest, stand on our goal line to touch at least of Goals they could’ve touched, and the shit body language and at times open disinterest, I’m waiting for the questions about whether he’s ‘lost the players’. They need a patsy to take the fall for the members, he’s as good as any. The fact being the list manager, his team and relevant committee people should all be sacked right now.

Here's the guy who needs to go (and for some reason has an extensive Wikipedia page which is gobsmacking and not at the same time given who he is) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Lethlean

I can imagine given his footballing background he thought it was just as simple as getting good players in like it is in some of the lesser comps like the Ammos, but AFL footy is a different sport and much more detailed when it comes to building lists.

[1eyedog]

What a dumpster fire...

- Frawley, Carlisle, McKernan & Ryder surely can’t go on. Four KPPs.
- Big money tied up in Hill & Crouch, not commensurate to their output.
- Hannebery is over 30 and hasn’t played this year.
- Howard is an expensive option when their mids won’t defend to help him out.
- Geary is 33 in two months.
- One draft pick inside the top 40 this year.
- Questions over their fragility.
- While exiting Bruce & Hickey for not huge return.

Their list manager would be sacked for either horrifically misjudging their list, or worse, he knew but wanted to go full Dodoro to win trade weeks. What they have proactively created is about as bad a situation that I could hypothesise. I can’t work out if they’ll double down or try to rebuild which means they let some free agents go like Billing’s. They’re on their way back into no mans land they’ve been in for a decade.

That's just about the perfect post.

[bulldogtragic]

Here's the guy who needs to go (and for some reason has an extensive Wikipedia page which is gobsmacking and not at the same time given who he is) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Lethlean

I can imagine given his footballing background he thought it was just as simple as getting good players in like it is in some of the lesser comps like the Ammos, but AFL footy is a different sport and much more detailed when it comes to building lists.

Bains coming to us has caused them a world of pain. I’m amazed that this incompetence from him and also Ned Guy at Collingwood can happen in organisation’s with a ton of cash and apparent oversight by their own organisation and the AFEL. Makes you appreciate our key off field people even more.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I just don’t think their midfield stacks up. Who’s gonna hurt you? Steele is great but he’s still quite vanilla. They really could have used Treloar.

[mjp]

What a dumpster fire...

- Frawley, Carlisle, McKernan & Ryder surely can’t go on. Four KPPs.
- Big money tied up in Hill & Crouch, not commensurate to their output.
- Hannebery is over 30 and hasn’t played this year.
- Howard is an expensive option when their mids won’t defend to help him out.
- Geary is 33 in two months.
- One draft pick inside the top 40 this year.
- Questions over their fragility.
- While exiting Bruce & Hickey for not huge return.

Again, things are not as bad as they seem.

Set Frawley and McKernan aside - moneyball style, depth selections...Carlisle and Marshall injured? They play. No biggie.
I'll come back to Hill and Crouch.
Hannebery hasn't worked.
Howard is awesome...not sure of the criticism there.
Geary has been great. You give your 33 yo captain another year to 'prove it' - plus, not a big money player.

Hill was always a roll of the dice gamble that worked for a while. He has been electric for the past couple of weeks - rubbish last night and earlier in the year. He's an outside mid...is he worth the $? Prob not...but in terms of recruiting, he was a good choice.

I thought Crouch was wrong for them as he is just an accumulator...and by committing to him so early (think Sam Lloyd and Mitch Hannan for us) you limit yourself from selecting other players - in this case, they probably could have gotten involved with the Treloar recruitment.

I think they're going to be fine. The players are simply not defending and that cannot be quickly turned around...they PRESSURE around the ball (well, against Geelong they did) but that isn't the same as defending - sacrificing the potential for possession for the betterment of the side...it is going to take some time to work through.

I still look at their list and with King, Marshall, Howard they have some good talls and a reasonable fleet of mids...just have to play better.

[bulldogtragic]

Fair counter points. Howard can dead set play, I’m suggesting if you pay big dollars for him then for gods sake other 21 players help him do his job, defend. Give him a chop out, block his opponents run, anything to help him. He alone can stop everything. My criticism is of his team mates refusal to defend, not actually of Howard.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

What's happened over the past year or so was a classic sugar hit, whereby you had all of Ryder, Butler, Marshal, Hannebury, Jones and Hill etc. coming in and playing as well as they all could at the same time.

Given our cycles were relatively aligned post the 2008-2012 period it satisfies me knowing that after that time we've rebuilt, won a flag, rebuilt/ partially rebuilt (or whatever GVGjr will allow me to call it ) and seem to be doing better than they are again - albeit having lost a final to them last year.

Ratten has a huge task on his hands.

Always a risk to bring in so many players from other Clubs who have under performed with Howard being the possible exception.
Compared to our recruitment it has been a disaster, considering where St. Kilda finished last year. Not unlike Collingwood who similarly have made a mess of their recruitment policy.

[Mofra]

Over the past 8 years they have taken 5 mids at the draft. That seems much lower than other clubs.

I'm not sure you can put up an entire midfield of players traded in (Zac Jones, Steele, Crouch) and expect 100% buy in from everyone. There simply has to be some drafted & developed players in there. Hunter Clark should play midfield (but doesn't), Byrne was arguably their best last weekend as a 'decent' developing type and Bytel battles hard.

Howard, King and Marshall are a decent framework and I like Battle either end (he's no wingman so god knows why he's played there). They also have no 2nd, 3rd or 4th round picks this year. Billings is a finisher but he's not the type you build a list around and they've had a number of close drafting misses too (Billings over Bont, McCartin over Petracca, Clark and Coffield over Naughton).