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  1. #421
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    Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R1 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bulldogs Bite View Post
    As much as I'd like to agree with that, our big 3 have been flat out embarrassed a few times (v Carlton, v GWS and now v Pies). Two of those now are back to back in big games which is concerning.

    This can happen to any team, but three times in less than a year in such dramatic circumstances? I don't recall our 2016 side ever capitulating like this. I think of the Geelong game late in that season when everything was against us with an incredible amount of injuries and yet we played to the final bell admirably.

    This side is far more talented than 2016 but they're also far more mentally fragile. Not sure how we fix this which is what is so disappointing about last night after a summer of banging the drums about how much we've been stewing over last year's final.
    2016 team contained Clay Smith, Picken, Matty Boyd, Morris, and also Libba when finals started. There is absolutely no fragility in that group, and their hardness and fierce desire to win every single contest has not been adequately replaced thus far.

    Our balance is askew. We put little time and effort into negating opposition players, and rely on our midfield to give us first use. As your examples allude, when the midfield/ruck gets decimated, we look like the emperor with no clothes. Professional, hardened teams like GWS and Colingwood will demolish anybody that shows weakness at the contest. Our big 3 mids are simply too good to allow abominations like last night to happen often, but we still need to balance out the style of play with additional personnel who can lift us when we are not at our best. We do have a large number of players who go into their shell when confronted by rabid opposition - it doesn't matter how talented they are, they will continue to have no impact when it is really needed. A number of players are on notice in that regard.

    As for our stoppage tactics and ruck set up, I actually felt sorry for English last night because he was so clinically, predictably and easily dismantled and torn apart, he had nowhere to hide because there was no proper support to back him up. The folly of the concept of 'putting games into him' was exposed with cold and ruthless efficiency last night (not for the first time), not just by Grundy but by an American project player built like a match stick. We simply need Sweet or Trengove in to balance the team structure and actually give English the chance to play to his strengths. How many times will it take to play English as virtual lone ruckman and get slaughtered before it adversely affects his own confidence long term? It goes without saying that it makes winning more difficult.
    "Look at me mate. Look at me. I'm flyin'"

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  3. #422
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    Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R1 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by soupaman View Post
    I get what you're saying, but bringing in Libba so that we have a plan B in case our a grade midfield doesn't turn up isn't a great plan imo, especially when you consider how little Libba offers elsewhere. I think if he isn't good enough to be primarily in the side as an extractor he shouldn't be in the side. Shame because he has been such a significant contributor in the past
    I would say Libba is not a plan B and most definitely earns a spot in our best 22 when fit. He will halve contests at worst and give Bont a valuable chop out so he can go forward and provide headaches for opposition defenders. Before his knee injury in the second game against Carlton last year, Libba had a very good first half of the season.

    He takes Wallis' place for mine, who is not and will never be an AFL quality midfielder.
    "Look at me mate. Look at me. I'm flyin'"

  4. #423
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    Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R1 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by jeemak View Post
    Taps to advantage or any other ruck advantage can at a minimum be negated if we have a midfield group willing to do it. Tonight we didn't, many times last year we showed we could when we were committed to the cause.

    Nobody who is sane would have actually thought English improved exponentially over the course of the preseason to guarantee the issues we saw with him last year wouldn't have been there tonight. I expected him to struggle, it seems our midfield either backed him in too optimistically or were sleeping at the wheel. What I saw from the midfield suggests they were suffering from the latter issue, We gave away silly free kicks which is a big sign, and were sloppy and didn't tackle.

    The good news is all of this is related to something that can be changed with a different mindset. Our blue chip midfielders need to get their hands dirty and provide cover for everyone else who is helping them to try and get a result.
    .
    One of the smart things Buckley did was to sit on our three mids. I noticed in the background, especially at ball ups, Dunkley was continually held and whenever Bont went for the ball he was pounced on. Collingwood to their credit, did their homework on our mids and we had no answer. I don't believe we had the midfield power to rotate too many through there last night. Lippa and Libba are needed back in the team to help out. Wallis is really not a centre bounce mid anymore, he has always lacked the pace to spread.

    As for Cox, 7 hitouts and 4 marks, and 9 disposals, is not exactly world beating. Yes English got thrashed by the best ruckman in the AFL and will once more learn and gain some experience.
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    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  5. #424
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    Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R1 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Hotel Foxtrot View Post
    I am looking forward to reading MJP's take in the next day or so.
    He usually makes me want to delete my posts following each game.
    Tonight is no different! Come on down Mike!
    I was working so didn't watch it live...and I have been at work since 4am so haven't been too keen on watching the replay this morning.

    I don't know. If it is one of those effort based losses like the elimination final I am not sure I have too many nice things to say...I think the board went into meltdown when I suggested Macrae should be dropped at one point last year for having terrible body language and being a sook.

    I'll watch it I guess but this group is really prone to putting forth crap effort and no matter what the coaches plan or do, if the effort isn't there it doesn't matter a cracker...Am I surprised we didn't bring effort? I guess I am...but if you remember I didn't really much like the way we blamed the Giants for being 'overly' physical in the final last year instead of taking the 'You had better not try that again' approach. And now - as repeat offenders - we are basically begging opposition clubs to bring the hammer every week.

    (Not) looking forward to watching the game.
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

  6. #425
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    Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R1 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    I was working so didn't watch it live...and I have been at work since 4am so haven't been too keen on watching the replay this morning.

    I don't know. If it is one of those effort based losses like the elimination final I am not sure I have too many nice things to say...I think the board went into meltdown when I suggested Macrae should be dropped at one point last year for having terrible body language and being a sook.

    I'll watch it I guess but this group is really prone to putting forth crap effort and no matter what the coaches plan or do, if the effort isn't there it doesn't matter a cracker...Am I surprised we didn't bring effort? I guess I am...but if you remember I didn't really much like the way we blamed the Giants for being 'overly' physical in the final last year instead of taking the 'You had better not try that again' approach. And now - as repeat offenders - we are basically begging opposition clubs to bring the hammer every week.

    (Not) looking forward to watching the game.
    Well this sums it up:

    We didn’t come with an appetite to compete, which is really disappointing because we’ve trained all summer and that’s been something that we’ve been really good at.” - Caleb Daniel
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  7. #426
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    Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R1 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    Am I surprised we didn't bring effort? I guess I am...but if you remember I didn't really much like the way we blamed the Giants for being 'overly' physical in the final last year instead of taking the 'You had better not try that again' approach. And now - as repeat offenders - we are basically begging opposition clubs to bring the hammer every week.
    GWS gave out some valuable lessons in the EF last year. Unfortunately, Collingwood were the only ones who did their homework last night.

    There is now a very effective and proven method in place to completely dismantle our game plan. Every club will have taken note - it will be very interesting to see how our players and coaching staff respond to this challenge.
    "Look at me mate. Look at me. I'm flyin'"

  8. #427
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    Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R1 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    I was working so didn't watch it live...and I have been at work since 4am so haven't been too keen on watching the replay this morning.

    I don't know. If it is one of those effort based losses like the elimination final I am not sure I have too many nice things to say...I think the board went into meltdown when I suggested Macrae should be dropped at one point last year for having terrible body language and being a sook.

    I'll watch it I guess but this group is really prone to putting forth crap effort and no matter what the coaches plan or do, if the effort isn't there it doesn't matter a cracker...Am I surprised we didn't bring effort? I guess I am...but if you remember I didn't really much like the way we blamed the Giants for being 'overly' physical in the final last year instead of taking the 'You had better not try that again' approach. And now - as repeat offenders - we are basically begging opposition clubs to bring the hammer every week.

    (Not) looking forward to watching the game.
    Years back both Wallis and Liberatore (maybe one or two more) came back from their end of season break early determined to get into the gym and get stronger so that specifically Lenny Hayes would not slam them around the following year. I wonder if the GWS performance was really the yardstick we used this summer as motivation?
    Sure we talked about it but based on last night it wasn't evident there was no line in the sand on the effort and vigor we bring

    Yes MJP it had all the signs of one of those 'effort based losses' that plagued us (no pun intended) last year and the signs were there early in the game. If you can bring yourself to watch it I think we would appreciate your thoughts
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  9. #428
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    Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R1 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Sedat View Post
    I would say Libba is not a plan B and most definitely earns a spot in our best 22 when fit. He will halve contests at worst and give Bont a valuable chop out so he can go forward and provide headaches for opposition defenders. Before his knee injury in the second game against Carlton last year, Libba had a very good first half of the season.

    He takes Wallis' place for mine, who is not and will never be an AFL quality midfielder.
    Yeah i don't rate Wallis as a mid at all either. It's always baffled me that after thay season where Mclean excelled as a mid and Wallis as a forward they have instead committed to Mclean as almost a pure forward and Wallis playing 5050.

    Wallis, Lloyd and Dale shoukd be competingfor at most 2 spots, as they are all too similiar and offer no versatility.

    Libba could take one of their spots, but again im just not convinced that he is in our full time midfield brigade and he doesnt offer as much as say Lipinski or Smith as a second tier option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sedat View Post
    GWS gave out some valuable lessons in the EF last year. Unfortunately, Collingwood were the only ones who did their homework last night.

    There is now a very effective and proven method in place to completely dismantle our game plan. Every club will have taken note - it will be very interesting to see how our players and coaching staff respond to this challenge.
    It's the JJ debacle all over again, just on a bigger scale. We get bullied, play the victim, and in doing so ensure it happens forever and we struggle to get our confidence back. Every single club will just be aggressive as hell whenever they play us and we will go into our shells.
    I should leave it alone but you're not right

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  11. #429
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    Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R1 2020

    I think all these comments about attitude are becoming a distraction.

    7 easy scoring shots to 1 in the first quarter. 14 to 4 by half time. Suggests the problem was structural.

    The game the week before offered some clues that it might happen. Look at the contested marks in the area 10 to 25 metres from the opposition goal. Port was able to keep setting them up after Dixon and Lycett were out.

    No surprise Cox and Grundy had 6 scores from close in. lucky for us they kicked badly.

    Both port and Collingwood set up moves from half back to goal line in the same way.

    They had a workable plan and they made it work. I don’t think we looked like we had a plan to start with.

  12. #430
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    Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R1 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by soupaman View Post

    It's the JJ debacle all over again, just on a bigger scale. We get bullied, play the victim, and in doing so ensure it happens forever and we struggle to get our confidence back. Every single club will just be aggressive as hell whenever they play us and we will go into our shells.
    Great call.

    Many times last year when we were really battling, I'd turn to my mate and say this game needs two goals and a fight. When a team is piling on scoreboard pressure, it just gets away from us and we seem to have awful trouble turning the tide. We are capable of hitting the scoreboard, but rarely seem up for the fight.

    It's an indictment on the group. Pansies.

  13. #431
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    Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R1 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by SonofScray View Post
    It's an indictment on the group. Pansies.
    I won't repeat what I wrote to my brother lest I get accused of being a right wing troll, but I will say that the vast majority of our players aren't exactly the sort you'd want beside you in the trenches when the **** really hits the fan.

    I miss the days when we had Matty B, Mozza, Picko, Clay never taking a backward step.
    Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

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  15. #432
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    Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R1 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by CarnTheScray View Post
    What a shocking performance. At least 5 of those players out there last night wouldn't be in my AFL side. This game has managed to be the one that breaks my father after 60 years. He's cancelled his membership for the first time in his history of supporting the club. Who can blame him.
    Me. I have followed the dogs more years than your father mate and there is no way I would ever cancel my membership. Wasn't he there in 1989? We nearly bloody lost our club.

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  17. #433
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    Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R1 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Danjul View Post
    I think all these comments about attitude are becoming a distraction.

    7 easy scoring shots to 1 in the first quarter. 14 to 4 by half time. Suggests the problem was structural.

    The game the week before offered some clues that it might happen. Look at the contested marks in the area 10 to 25 metres from the opposition goal. Port was able to keep setting them up after Dixon and Lycett were out.

    No surprise Cox and Grundy had 6 scores from close in. lucky for us they kicked badly.

    Both port and Collingwood set up moves from half back to goal line in the same way.

    They had a workable plan and they made it work. I don’t think we looked like we had a plan to start with.

    I really think we need to be positive, going into our next match, whenever that may be. Bont will never again be as ineffective as he was last night. We need some muscle and I feel that Sweet could be someone that may make us walk taller!! Sweet in for Gardiner who tries hard....but no. Young to the backline and keep him there till we know for sure if he can or cannot! Play English up forward and change with Sweet when the opposition bigger guy has a break. Dickson or Richards in for Cavarra and Lapinski in for either Wallis or Caleb ( I hate myself for suggesting this) or whomever is not doing what is required. Libba back and we look tougher by miles. Teams are gonna be coming for us every week and we need to respond!!!!

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  19. #434
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    Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R1 2020

    I get the calls for Gardner to be dropped but felt Cavarra did ok with very limited opportunities. Also, unlike his mores esteemed teammates at least most of Cavarra’s tackles stuck and I felt he had more tenacity too. Hope Bevo gives him another chance next week if indeed we play next week.

    Bailey Dale should be in cross hairs and I though Dunkley and Lloyd were poor too.

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    Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R1 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by comrade View Post
    I won't repeat what I wrote to my brother lest I get accused of being a right wing troll, but I will say that the vast majority of our players aren't exactly the sort you'd want beside you in the trenches when the **** really hits the fan.

    I miss the days when we had Matty B, Mozza, Picko, Clay never taking a backward step.
    Add in 2016 version of Liberatore and Cordy we were a tough hard team.
    More of an In Bruges guy?

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