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  1. #46
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    Re: Three things I've learned R1 V Collingwood

    Quote Originally Posted by comrade View Post
    It's a societal issue. I just finished reading a book called Iron John about the devolution of masculinity in modern society, our playing group is a good example of it.

    If they spent the next 6 months out bush, amongst strong male leaders doing inner work, we'd be a much better footy team for it.
    Adelaide tried a camp for that, it didn't work.

    I do wonder who our "tough rookie" is. Cavarra has a similar story as Matty Boyd, Dale Morris, Liam Picken, but he's hardly the same sort of player. Do we throw Cal Porter to the wolves and throw him in the middle, and let Macrae sulk on the wing for a game?
    Will Libba be fit and if he is, roll the dice as a first-rotation mid?

    Right now we have had a very poor final in which GWS turned up the heat and we wilted, and a game first-up where Collingwood pressured in the middle and we wilted. One game is an aberration, two games is the start of a trend.
    Bont was belted by North a few years ago, he stood up and it made him as a player. Where has that Bontempelli gone?

    Do we swap out Bailey Dale with Billy Gowers and say "Right Bailey, this bloke has 1% of your talent but 200% of your work ethic so he's in"?
    Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers

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  3. #47
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    Re: Three things I've learned R1 V Collingwood

    Quote Originally Posted by Mofra View Post
    Adelaide tried a camp for that, it didn't work.
    It won't take a bandaid 1 week 'boot camp' approach to overcome the social programming and re-wire the mindset required to become fully integrated.

    When recruiting, we would obviously be looking at personality testing, but something isn't working with our approach. We need to look at the player's relationship with their father, how much development has been left to the feminine influences in their life.

    We need to be measuring a player's grittiness and target those with high levels.
    Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

  4. #48
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    Re: Three things I've learned R1 V Collingwood

    Quote Originally Posted by Mofra View Post
    Bont was belted by North a few years ago, he stood up and it made him as a player. Where has that Bontempelli gone?

    Do we swap out Bailey Dale with Billy Gowers and say "Right Bailey, this bloke has 1% of your talent but 200% of your work ethic so he's in"?
    Billy does have some mongrel about him, whereas Dale I am still to be convinced he will make it.
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  5. #49
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    Re: Three things I've learned R1 V Collingwood

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    Billy does have some mongrel about him, whereas Dale I am still to be convinced he will make it.
    I think Bailey Dale can be a very good home and away player. Is that enough? I am yet to be convinced he'd stand up in a high pressure game.

    How do we think he would have played against GWS in 2016? That should be our guide, that level of intensity and toughness. Multiple players, at multiple times, stood up with hard contests (yes I'm thinking of that Clay Smith ground ball against Griffen where neither player one it but Clay was 100% committed and we Caleb Daniel benefitted).
    Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers

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  7. #50
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    Re: Three things I've learned R1 V Collingwood

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    Sorry to be pedantic but it was just one call not multiple calls as this sort of implies and that call was supported by reasons not just emotion.
    I've been saying and saying that Bevo needs somebody to mind his back. Given the chance this club will eat it's own for no other reason than they sort of felt like it.
    Have you been reading those Roddy Doyle books again, Dougal!?


    I have, yeah Ted, you big gobshite

  8. #51
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    Re: Three things I've learned R1 V Collingwood

    Quote Originally Posted by Twodogs View Post
    I've been saying and saying that Bevo needs somebody to mind his back. Given the chance this club will eat it's own for no other reason than they sort of felt like it.
    I've never quite grasped why he would need that. I would have thought that sort of fits in with Maple's and Grant's involvement with him.
    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

  9. #52
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    Re: Three things I've learned R1 V Collingwood

    Quote Originally Posted by Mofra View Post
    I think Bailey Dale can be a very good home and away player. Is that enough? I am yet to be convinced he'd stand up in a high pressure game.

    How do we think he would have played against GWS in 2016? That should be our guide, that level of intensity and toughness. Multiple players, at multiple times, stood up with hard contests (yes I'm thinking of that Clay Smith ground ball against Griffen where neither player one it but Clay was 100% committed and we Caleb Daniel benefitted).
    The problem with Friday was locked in on Thursday. I have a friend who refused to watch because he said it was going to be a repeat of last year’s Carlton match. It was that predictable, not surprising that Collingwood knew what to do.

    It is not attitude. We simply had 16 players in the wrong place doing the wrong thing.

    For example, Dale is an excellent finisher within 45 metres of goal. Look at his history. He has never been a play maker.

    Cordy has never been a key position backman. Last year many of his opponents kicked personal bests. As a result of having him at full back Keath was drawn too deep, having to support him and Crozier was trying to jump over both to spoil. Once the panic set in (very early) more erratic play generated more errors. Look at Hunter - I think he had a contribution to Collingwood’s first three goals.

    I suspect most of the players were trying to do their best with the game plan they had been given. Unfortunately the ball was bounced it was immediately obvious that the plan was rubbish. And it will be the next time it’s used.

  10. #53
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    Re: Three things I've learned R1 V Collingwood

    Quote Originally Posted by Danjul View Post
    The problem with Friday was locked in on Thursday. I have a friend who refused to watch because he said it was going to be a repeat of last year’s Carlton match. It was that predictable, not surprising that Collingwood knew what to do.

    It is not attitude. We simply had 16 players in the wrong place doing the wrong thing.

    For example, Dale is an excellent finisher within 45 metres of goal. Look at his history. He has never been a play maker.

    Cordy has never been a key position backman. Last year many of his opponents kicked personal bests. As a result of having him at full back Keath was drawn too deep, having to support him and Crozier was trying to jump over both to spoil. Once the panic set in (very early) more erratic play generated more errors. Look at Hunter - I think he had a contribution to Collingwood’s first three goals.

    I suspect most of the players were trying to do their best with the game plan they had been given. Unfortunately the ball was bounced it was immediately obvious that the plan was rubbish. And it will be the next time it’s used.
    So, was the game plan to be second to the football and make sure you don't apply any pressure from the first bounce? Or was that a protest to the actual game plan they didn't like?

    If your midfield isn't getting the ball forward your forwards are going to be rubbish. If your midfield isn't applying defencive pressure the opposition is going to get it in deep and frequently and your defenders are going to look rubbish. If you're trying to rebound from deep spots continually under pressure you're going to struggle to rebound quickly and effectively, and your rebounding game will look rubbish.
    Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.

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  12. #54
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    Re: Three things I've learned R1 V Collingwood

    Quote Originally Posted by jeemak View Post
    So, was the game plan to be second to the football and make sure you don't apply any pressure from the first bounce? Or was that a protest to the actual game plan they didn't like?

    If your midfield isn't getting the ball forward your forwards are going to be rubbish. If your midfield isn't applying defencive pressure the opposition is going to get it in deep and frequently and your defenders are going to look rubbish. If you're trying to rebound from deep spots continually under pressure you're going to struggle to rebound quickly and effectively, and your rebounding game will look rubbish.
    Spot on, you can forget about positions, that is only what is written on paper. Football is played differently these days to the so called good Ol days. You don't win the clearances (especially out of the centre), or stoppages and contested ball, you are 90% of the time gawn.
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  13. #55
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    Re: Three things I've learned R1 V Collingwood

    Quote Originally Posted by jeemak View Post
    So, was the game plan to be second to the football and make sure you don't apply any pressure from the first bounce? Or was that a protest to the actual game plan they didn't like?

    If your midfield isn't getting the ball forward your forwards are going to be rubbish. If your midfield isn't applying defencive pressure the opposition is going to get it in deep and frequently and your defenders are going to look rubbish. If you're trying to rebound from deep spots continually under pressure you're going to struggle to rebound quickly and effectively, and your rebounding game will look rubbish.
    The players are approaching their prime and have experience. To have 2 inside 50’s by the 14 minute mark of the second quarter means the players were irrelevant, not just down on form.

    Why didn’t the midfield get the ball forward? We saw arguably our best player handball 30 metres to two unmanned Collingwood players. Why did he do that? What was he thinking?

    Look at Collingwood’s first goal. All the Dogs trying to spoil, hitting the ball to waiting crumbers. Should not happen.

    It is not effort that was lacking, it was intelligence. Obviously it has been trained out of them.

    or they had an impossible game structure - that has been proven unworkable before.

  14. #56
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    Re: Three things I've learned R1 V Collingwood

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    I've never quite grasped why he would need that. I would have thought that sort of fits in with Maple's and Grant's involvement with him.
    Because we are the bulldogs and we catch and kill our own. We did it in 1957 and I'm concerned we will do it again.
    Have you been reading those Roddy Doyle books again, Dougal!?


    I have, yeah Ted, you big gobshite

  15. #57
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    Re: Three things I've learned R1 V Collingwood

    Quote Originally Posted by comrade View Post
    It won't take a bandaid 1 week 'boot camp' approach to overcome the social programming and re-wire the mindset required to become fully integrated.

    When recruiting, we would obviously be looking at personality testing, but something isn't working with our approach. We need to look at the player's relationship with their father, how much development has been left to the feminine influences in their life.

    We need to be measuring a player's grittiness and target those with high levels.
    Yeah none of this stuff sounds like a recipe for disaster at all.

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  17. #58
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    Re: Three things I've learned R1 V Collingwood

    Quote Originally Posted by hujsh View Post
    Yeah none of this stuff sounds like a recipe for disaster at all.
    Care to elaborate?
    Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

  18. #59
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    Re: Three things I've learned R1 V Collingwood

    Quote Originally Posted by comrade View Post
    Care to elaborate?
    Lots of the things you mentioned raises red flags.

    'Re-wiring' young men with talk of being more masculine, and rejecting draftees because they have more feminine influences in their life (sure that'll go great with Bont with the way he seems to regard his sisters and the work he does outside footy) etc sounds like a great way to end up on the front page for the wrong reasons.

    Also 'overcome the social programming and re-wire the mindset required to become fully integrated' sounds like something from Scientology.

  19. #60
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    Re: Three things I've learned R1 V Collingwood

    Quote Originally Posted by hujsh View Post
    Lots of the things you mentioned raises red flags.

    'Re-wiring' young men with talk of being more masculine, and rejecting draftees because they have more feminine influences in their life (sure that'll go great with Bont with the way he seems to regard his sisters and the work he does outside footy) etc sounds like a great way to end up on the front page for the wrong reasons.

    Also 'overcome the social programming and re-wire the mindset required to become fully integrated' sounds like something from Scientology.
    Fair enough, no point getting into it when it's obvious you've got no interest in having a mature discussion on the topic.
    Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

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