Just because English was BOG doesn't mean...

[mjp]

...that our ruck "problems" are solved.

Nor does the fact that he got smashed by Grundy mean that they are insurmountable.

Just because Weightman did a couple of flashy things it doesn't mean we have 'found' a small forward. Nor does it mean we haven't. Etc. Etc.

We still have a list of largely 'unproven' players. Watching two of 'Team Bailey' (Smith and Williams) this year, you would have to think they could almost be added to the group of 'proven' AFL players in our side. I think Liber is close to 're-claiming' that status as well post injury. The likes of Bruce, English, Dale...well, one (or two) swallows don't make a summer.

Watching the game last night I am continually struck by how LITTLE experience so many of our players have in dealing with challenging games of footy...we just aren't in close games these days. We are either 'on' or 'not on' and the results seem to be one way or another. If we can get 'just a few more' players up to that consistent level of performance where they have 'experienced enough' such that whether they are in form or not, feeling 'confident' or not, having a 'good day' or not, their level of performance/impact on the game only varies by 10-15% then we have the makings of a really strong, balanced team.

My love for Crozier is well known - but he is just a good player. He probably isn't an AA-calibre player...but he has literally seen it all and seemingly knows what to do to either minimise the damage/maximise the benefit in any given situation. We just need to get him a few more mates. Things are building - they really are. Games like the Carlton one are still going to happen - hell, think of Richmond in the 2018 prelim - but hopefully games like the Giants prelim or Collingwood R#1 are starting to move into the rear view mirror.

[SonofScray]

It's a good reflection. I am full of belief about the talent that exists across the bulk of most squads we put out. Our best is good enough, on its day. I'm not sure how many "days" we have in us though. It's a real roller coaster still. I'm riding it, warts and all.

[bornadog]

People may not like hearing that we are young and inexperienced, but that is the reality of where we are at. There is nothing like experience in a team to give you consistency. Even Keath hasn't played 50 games yet, but he does have a mature head.

Last night:

Keath, Alex	37
Lipinski, Patrick	37
English, Timothy	36
Smith, Bailey	30
Young, Lachie R	7
Vandermeer, Laitham	6
West, Rhylee	6
Weightman, Cody	1

On top of the above players, this year we have played West (6), Butler (2), Cavarra (1).

I think the future is bright, but we need to stick with these guys (if we think they are ok) and get some experience into them and then who knows how far we can go.

[boydogs]

If English keeps clunking them in the F50 he could be a second ruck and we could benefit from his height & athleticism without being torched at the source

[Remi Moses]

Regardless of what people think on here or whatever
Afl footballers don’t find their consistency until at least 70 games
Some are quicker than others
Ruckman don’t come good as rule until at least mid to late 20’s ( nearly all)
English is an exceptionally talented young player but he’s going to have his growing pains
Let’s enjoy his progress

[Remi Moses]

If English keeps clunking them in the F50 he could be a second ruck and we could benefit from his height & athleticism without being torched at the source

Torched at the source is opposition clearances
Peter street used to get a thousand hit outs
I’ll leave it there

[Bulldog Joe]

English is certainly developing and last night he produced probably his best "Rucking" performance.

He is probably a long way off being dominant in hitouts, but he was remarkably better in getting advantage from the hitouts he did get.

His ability as a tall midfielder is what sets him apart and he needs to not lose that ability, while he improves his ruck craft. This may mean a compromise in strength/bulk vs agility.

I would like us to have a better option on ground to cover his spells, but he will now be making opposition coaches think about how to counter his strengths.

Bailey Williams seems to have consolidated his position, while Bailey Smith has surely established himself as a quality player.

We do need 2 or 3 players like Vandermeer, Weightman and West to take the step. It would also help a lot if someone like Bailey Dale could bring their worst much closer to the best they have shown.

[azabob]

People may not like hearing that we are young and inexperienced, but that is the reality of where we are at. There is nothing like experience in a team to give you consistency.

On top of the above players, this year we have played West (6), Butler (2), Cavarra (1).

I think the future is bright, but we need to stick with these guys (if we think they are ok) and get some experience into them and then who knows how far we can go.

Regardless of what people think on here or whatever
Afl footballers don’t find their consistency until at least 70 games

Yes we are young, but as we all know it is self inflicted with our list management strategy. I really wish the club would stop talking about it like we had no control over it.

We seem intent on churning and burning once our players hit the 70 game mark.

Just because we are young does not guarantee anything.

[comrade]

What are some options for ruck coverage when English has a spell? Because Cordy isn’t the answer.

I think Lewis Young could be a puzzle piece. Play at CHB, with Cordy as a third tall, and when English goes off, send Young into the ruck and roll Cordy over to the second tall forward for a brief stint?

Not sure where that would leave Wood.

[azabob]

What are some options for ruck coverage when English has a spell? Because Cordy isn’t the answer.

Its a big problem. If we make it to finals we need to have sorted it out.

Trengrove is the answer but clearly not in our plans due to his lack of mobility.

[angelopetraglia]

English had a game last night that was rarefied air for a ruckman. It doesn't mean he can do it every week or against ever opponent but it is a type of game few ruckman can actually play. 22 touches, 6 clearances, 4 contested marks and a few brilliant ruck taps in a game with 20% less time than normal is just freakish.

He is only 22. Gawn is 28. What was Gawn doing at 22? Averaged 10 possessions per game. Averaged 14 HO per game. Last Season Gawn averaged 18 possessions per game and 40 HO.

Tim this year has averaged 17 possessions per game (shortened game time so 17 = 20) and only 15 HO per game.

[angelopetraglia]

Dean Cox. Progression to stardom.

Age & Average Disposals & Marks

20 = 8 & 2
21 = 10 & 4
22 = 11 & 4
23 = 14 & 5
24 = 16 & 7
25 = 18 & 7
26 = 19 & 6
27 = 22 & 6
28 = 22 & 6

English

19 = 7 & 1
20 = 13 & 5
21 = 13 & 4
22 = 17 & 6 (shortened game time so = 20 & 7)

[GVGjr]

People may not like hearing that we are young and inexperienced, but that is the reality of where we are at. There is nothing like experience in a team to give you consistency. Even Keath hasn't played 50 games yet, but he does have a mature head.

People actually love to hear that in a side that is rebuilding but our passive list management and top up approach indicates we haven't acknowledged a rebuild is place even if it has been happening by stealth.
We have an experienced list, we just aren't playing some of them. So if you use the old adage that if you are good enough you are old enough then an inexperienced team that is put on the park isn't the excuse it's often used as.

As an example, last year some people were saying we had enough KP players and ruck man but then at the end of the season applauded the club for getting two experienced KP players from other clubs. Most views on list management and the teams we put on the ground are very adaptable. We will probably chase another KP player at the end of the season.

I agree with the opening post, we do need to find some additional support for English and putting another player or two like Crozier into our best 22 would certainly help. At least we now clearly know that English is capable of better football.

Lloyd might help us if he can regain a bit of touch from last year, Suckling certainly helped us last night and I remain confident that Duryea will top off our back half if we can get him right.

It's the stop/start nature of our player development that is hard to understand for me and it's perhaps the reason why we can keep saying we have a young and inexperienced list.

We put development games into the likes of Will Hayes last year before he was really ready and this year he had been unsighted.
We put games into Lachie Young as a defender last season and before last night I don't think he had even made the emergency list except for his late call up last week.
We appear to have lost some faith in Lewis Young after setting him up last year for a bigger role this year and the development of Greene and Lynch has been stymied after some promising signs in previous years...I get that injuries has played a part in it as well
On top of that we lost faith in Rhyley West after one poor showing and who knows where we are with Roarke Smith

It's like we start something but never quite stay the course, losing faith but never really addressing things at the end of the season.
There are a lot of players on our list who have had senior football experience but someone has then hit the pause button.

We know are best is pretty good, we just need to know if we can close the gap on the bad performances just a bit

We are still right in this and a genuine chance to go far when it counts and to me it's not an age or experience reason

[Bulldog4life]

Richmond won a grand final with Grigg as it's second ruck. It is not a huge problem for us.

[Topdog]

English

18 = 7 & 1
19 = 13 & 5
20 = 13 & 4
21 = 17 & 6

Timmy is 22, nearly 23. Doesn't diminish your point in any way. He is progressing fantastically.