The Pile-On

[mjp]

Without looking at woof game day and team selection posts again I cannot recall any that were over the top and “going the person”.

If MC does select Billy (or other players who i think should not be selected again) I will always wish him well and hope he proves many of us wrong in a big big way.

I don’t read the match day thread anymore. The team selection thread was interesting- page 7 is all about people wishing Hunter well with regards his current personal issues. Which you can assume are in some way MH related. Pages 8,9,10, etc are all criticising the selection of Gowers. I actually want people to post and discuss it - I really do - but just reading everyone saying he is hopeless get s seriously tiresome. He was our leading goal kicker 2 years back - he must have some recognisable skills. Bevo knows a whole heap more than me and he is picking him...something is obviously going on at training to cause this.

Honestly, I don’t really understand his selection either, but saying his selection is a waste of time or that someone’s from the forum could do a better job is not a discussion...it’s just lowest common denominator stuff. What Ian going on with Dickson? I don’t know. It might be as simple as the role Billy plays is the same as the one Dale plays...so Dale out = Gowers in? What role does Dale play? Hell, what role does Lloyd play? I would love someone’s to have a go at unpacking it rather than just issuing a blanket “he’s hopeless” mandate.

Why don’t I do it? Because I’m not smart enough to work it out ans am a bit lost with regards our ever changing forward structure...

[Mitcha]

I guess I don't understand why our anger is so often directed at two players who have:

1/. Won their chance at a second club through hard work.
2/. Come off rookie contracts so clearly doing it tough compared to many of their team-mates financially.

The criticism levelled at Gardiner and Gowers is to me extraordinary...particularly since given no-one thinks they are any good anyway, why get surprised/upset when they mess things up?

And again on the error last night. It didn't actually COST US anything. And it was a SKILL ERROR. Sorry, but I just don't get the frustration or annoyance with one player who seemed to be trying his hardest.

I agree MJP it was a skill error but the skill error happened after a very very poor decision.
Good teams and coaches simulate late game scenarios at training often and the decision Billy made was one that should be made if we are 5 points down with little time left to open up the ground, not when we are 5 points in front and simply needing to maintain the ball. And as for your point of not actually costing us anything that is true on this occasion but fast forward to a tight final with the same scenario, would you or anyone else trust Billy to make the smart decision??? It's a solid NO from me. Dickson, Lloyd or West can play the same role and am staggered that Gowers was preferred to any of the other options.

[mjp]

I agree MJP it was a skill error but the skill error happened after a very very poor decision.
Good teams and coaches simulate late game scenarios at training often and the decision Billy made was one that should be made if we are 5 points down with little time left to open up the ground, not when we are 5 points in front and simply needing to maintain the ball....

1. Read my post about the earlier failure to release the first option handball + another comment in this thread (can’t remember by who) about Gowers not giving first option...this time he actively tried to do it.

2. You don’t know WHAT they have been doing at training (with no disrespect intended) so that part is a massive assumption.

3. A million other stupid errors (such as the one I mentioned about no ruckman at a d50 stoppage) and no other ‘pile ons’. In fact, the d50 stoppage one triggered a bunch of “it’s a stupid rule” comments...but equally one I’m pretty confident each and every player knows.

No excuse for playing the man here. If you don’t like gowers, fine. Say it. But don’t add to the pile on if he makes a mistake...

[Stefcep]

I didn't join the "pile up". And wanting Gowers sacked forewith was going too far. Demoting for a good month is not.

Having said that I don't accept the defense that "a million other errors" eg the ruck happened, yet only Gowers is being singled out.

I don't accept the defense that we didn't loose the game on the back of it so it was not that big a deal . Because we could so easily have.

I don't accept the defense that if we'd done x y or z differently earlier in the game, we wouldn't be in that position where a Gowers brain fart could have lost it. I don't accept it because those moments are gone and the game was still alive, and here we are at the moment of deciding the outcome What counts is what Gowers-or any other player- does, when it counts.

It counted. Lots. As I said in the matchday thread: Its important..

That's the difference.

[Stefcep]

I agree MJP it was a skill error but the skill error happened after a very very poor decision.
Good teams and coaches simulate late game scenarios at training often and the decision Billy made was one that should be made if we are 5 points down with little time left to open up the ground, not when we are 5 points in front and simply needing to maintain the ball. And as for your point of not actually costing us anything that is true on this occasion but fast forward to a tight final with the same scenario, would you or anyone else trust Billy to make the smart decision??? It's a solid NO from me. Dickson, Lloyd or West can play the same role and am staggered that Gowers was preferred to any of the other options.

Agree 100%. Contex is everything. Turning it over in the first quarter is not the same as turning it over with less than a minute and a kick in it. Yeah, Gowers and anyone esle WILL cop it harder if they make exactly the same thing as someone else did ealrier in the game. That's how it is and all professional footballers would know that.

[Grantysghost]

I'm not sure there is a lot anyone can do to muster a defence of that Gowers' kick. It was a mistake. That wasn't my issue at all, point that out for sure. It was at a critical time we all reacted the same. Personally my head went into my hands and I looked through my fingers until the siren.
My issue was with the anticipation of the error and subsequent magnification because it was Billy. He's a 20-22 player at best on current form. Every team has them; needs them, and he played his part I believe by working hard all night and giving a contest for our club. He wasn't alone that night making errors, even the Bont made some critical errors in the game, one I recall he tried to hit a pass and he sliced it into a dangerous position.
It just appeared from the moment he was selected it was the "told you so" moment for so many and the vindication champagne was flowing strong; pats on the back all round.
I get it. It's emotional, I was the same in his defence we all love the club. But there is a line and the pile on from selection to stuff up was over the top I believe. It wasn't just the game day thread.
I just feel sometimes If we could find as much energy pumping up these guys, as we do for bringing them down I think that's energy well spent. He's on his last chance, I imagine it was the last thing he wanted to do!
Enjoying the discussion, I hope Billy gets another chance and proves his worth.

[G-Mo77]

I didn't pile on afterwards (I don't think) I probably could be heard by the next door neighbours house and beyond the minute he took that kick. The worst part is that I knew it was going to go bad the minute he marked it and hoped he didn't screw it up. My opinion is that he shouldn't be there and think there are better options not playing. I don't like the @ing players on social media but sadly this is the world we live in now.

Just out of interest does anyone else follow other sports closely and see public responses to other players? I follow the NBA and man, those guys get hammered.

[comrade]

I think most of the Gowers criticism is actually fuelled by frustration with Bevo and his selection antics. I don't think anyone honestly dislikes Billy but the repeat chances Bevo has afforded him despite a lot of evidence that he's not quite up to the level just bubbled over.

There were plenty of people before the game that said he'll do something stupid that will impact our chances and low and behold, he did. Now it didn't cost us the match, but that's more Gold Coasts fault than anything.

Yeah, we didn't have a ruckman at a defensive contest but that's a much different scenario to a bloke who has a history of making very questionable choices on field (which is the very reason people pot him in the first place) having the ball in his hands with 40 seconds to go with a 5 point lead and free players everywhere, and deciding to bite off the riskiest option possible.

Everyone loves a good 'I told you so' and unfortunately for Billy & Bevo, he keeps giving the mob the opportunity to do it.

[Bulldog4life]

I don't know what Billy achieved in training or in scratch matches to warrant selection, but in any case he was there in the RWB.

Yes, the moment he kicked that ball when he had an option to kick to Smith all on his own in the forward 50, I screamed at home. Mrs BAD was not happy as I promised her I wouldn't yell and scream whilst watching any Bulldog matches.

I agree with JazzaD, there has been too much bagging Billy and not enough positivity towards our gutsy win.

Ditto BAD. We must have married sisters.

[Mitcha]

1. Read my post about the earlier failure to release the first option handball + another comment in this thread (can’t remember by who) about Gowers not giving first option...this time he actively tried to do it.

Yes he did, but why in this specific scenario???

2. You don’t know WHAT they have been doing at training (with no disrespect intended) so that part is a massive assumption.

Now you are making an assumption that I don't know what happens at training. (with no disrespect intended)

3. A million other stupid errors (such as the one I mentioned about no ruckman at a d50 stoppage) and no other ‘pile ons’. In fact, the d50 stoppage one triggered a bunch of “it’s a stupid rule” comments...but equally one I’m pretty confident each and every player knows.

No excuse for playing the man here. If you don’t like gowers, fine. Say it. But don’t add to the pile on if he makes a mistake...

It's pretty obvious I don't rate Gowers and believe there are many better options each week.

[mjp]

I don't accept the defense that we didn't loose the game on the back of it so it was not that big a deal . Because we could so easily have.

I don't accept the defense that if we'd done x y or z differently earlier in the game, we wouldn't be in that position where a Gowers brain fart could have lost it.

That's the difference.

I'm smiling.

The issues early in the game don't count as they don't mean anything 'cos they "don't directly impact the result". But issues late in the game DO COUNT even if they don't directly impact the result??? So if Gowers error had been in the 2nd q it wouldn't matter but because it happened at the end it does? And if they had scored a goal on TO in the 2nd q then that wouldn't have mattered as much as the same error in the last q that DIDN'T lead to a goal?

Right. I get it now.

I am pleased you said you didn't join the pile-on but suggesting that goals missed early in the game (as an example of an error) don't count as much as goals missed late in the game is such a ridiculous mentality. Everyone wants everyone to be 'CLUTCH' I guess - I mean it's all about the match winning three-pointer, never mind the stupid cheap foul in the 2nd q that cost 2-points and in the scheme of things is WHY you were 3-down in the first place. Or at the very least one of the reasons.

Mistakes are mistakes. Skill errors happen. Yes, it would be better if they didn't. 100%. But they do. I am much more interested in praising the late game efforts of Williams and Vander than slagging off Gowers. I guess that means I am in the minority.

[mjp]

It's pretty obvious I don't rate Gowers and believe there are many better options each week.

So you highlighted my "You don't know what they have been doing at training" comment. Was that to say you do know what they have been doing or was that something else?

And if you do know, what else have they been doing?? :-)

[comrade]

So you highlighted my "You don't know what they have been doing at training" comment. Was that to say you do know what they have been doing or was that something else?

And if you do know, what else have they been doing?? :-)

Well, whatever Billy is doing at training definitely isn't translating at AFL level. Yet he still gets picked. That's where the frustration is coming from, IMO.

[bornadog]

Well, whatever Billy is doing at training definitely isn't translating at AFL level. Yet he still gets picked. That's where the frustration is coming from, IMO.

Don't you have to reward players that train well and play well in VFL or scratch matches and drop players when they don't play well.?

[mjp]

Don't you have to reward players that train well and play well in VFL or scratch matches and drop players when they don't play well.?

They have to reward training form right now - because that is ALL THERE IS.

If Gowers - and Gardiner who, as another posted once said is supposed to be an EXCELLENT track worker! - are training well whilst others aren't, then they should be selected. Otherwise selection truly becomes a boys club/coaches favourites club call it what you will.

The players need to see positive performance being rewarded. They need to see poor EFFORT being excluded. Beyond that - skill level, decision making etc - all that stuff is a work in progress for every player!!!