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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
bornadog
Maybe those players aren't up to it?
I think Cavarra may come in next week.
Chicken vs egg - are they not up to it due to lack of opportunity, or are we holding on to "marginal" players too long?
Now I love to Roarke Smith story, but he's been at the kennel for years and is a 'marginal' wingman at best. Do we expect a club like Hawthorn would have afforded him the same amount of opportunity? Yes he's had setbacks, but is it the best strategy to suddenly expect a HBFer with two knee recos to suddenly become an AFL standard wingman?
Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
Mofra
Chicken vs egg - are they not up to it due to lack of opportunity, or are we holding on to "marginal" players too long?
My main frustration is not that the players who aren't getting chances might not be up to it (let's face it they probably aren't), it's that the players that are given continued opportunities clearly aren't.
We've seen Lewis Young play some excellent games of AFL football at least once a year every year since 2017, yet Gardner is continually given shine. We picked Cavarra to immediately impact our 22, yet he's been picked once while Gowers had games pumped into him at the rate of a first round pick. Brad Lynch and Fergus Greene showed a ton of promise when played at the higher level despite not really knocking down the door at the lower level, yet haven't even been considered based on...limited form at the lower level. It goes on and on.
None of those guys I just named may make it but we have to know by now the people we're picking ahead of them won't.
- I'm a visionary - Only here to confirm my biases -
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
Happy Days
My main frustration is not that the players who aren't getting chances might not be up to it (let's face it they probably aren't), it's that the players that are given continued opportunities clearly aren't.
We've seen Lewis Young play some excellent games of AFL football at least once a year every year since 2017, yet Gardner is continually given shine. We picked Cavarra to immediately impact our 22, yet he's been picked once while Gowers had games pumped into him at the rate of a first round pick. Brad Lynch and Fergus Greene showed a ton of promise when played at the higher level despite not really knocking down the door at the lower level, yet haven't even been considered based on...limited form at the lower level. It goes on and on.
None of those guys I just named may make it but we have to know by now the people we're picking ahead of them won't.
I mentioned something similar a few days back, we bring some players in and they show some promise but then we lose our way with their development. Some injuries haven't helped but Greene and Lynch have been injury free this year and had good pre-seasons.
It's like we have moved past them for whatever reason but you can bet that later in the year they'll be played, perform well and then get maintained on the list again.
I agree they may not make it but we need to be prepared to make the hard call earlier
Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
Happy Days
Gotta say I disagree with the thrust of the message. If we can't discuss why certain players are being picked because we aren't privvy to inside intel then why bother discussing anything? Why even bother having the forum?
Pretty sure my post said "I am interested in the thoughts of other posters".
It is the anger I don't get.
On the 'Our members have supported us" thread, your post effectively said "my pleasure, happy to support - now stop picking Gowers". I know it was meant to be funny (and I laughed a little) but I also think that it is a bit mean spirited. I am supporting as well but not based on who is in the team...and like I said, I know you were being funny but at the same time.
Going crazy about Gowers and Gardner (and to a lesser extent, Hayes, R. Smith and La Young) is something I just don't get. I guess I was trying to say that there must be a reason for the selections and I just WISH the reactions were an attempt to unpack them rather than just take the "He's no good - don't play him" approach.
I agree it (selection) seems to be pretty random at times and if you look at my posting history you will see I am as frustrated as anyone with the selection process to the point where I posted a "Selection Bingo" poll earlier this year to represent my frustration at the process - but in an attempt to have a bit of fun with it. Bulldogs Footy needs to be a release for me - I simply don't have the energy available to get angry and upset with players and coaches who I am pretty convinced are doing the best job that they can...I guess what I'm trying to say with the OP here is given we know that it isn't and given we know the MC do some 'interesting' things rather than just slinging mud at individuals who DON'T pick the team is there another approach we could take?
Gardner was picked to play on Hipwood. OK. Why? I think that is the debate I would love to have because the 'Gardner is no good and everyone who selected him is a goose' response. Ultimately I suppose people will do what they want - I just get bummed out by the "he's rubbish - everyone is an idiot" responses because it leaves no room to respond or debate.
What should I tell her? She's going to ask.
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
mjp
Gardner was picked to play on Hipwood. OK. Why? I think that is the debate I would love to have because the 'Gardner is no good and everyone who selected him is a goose' response. Ultimately I suppose people will do what they want - I just get bummed out by the "he's rubbish - everyone is an idiot" responses because it leaves no room to respond or debate.
So lets have the debate? Why was Gardner seen to be an effective match-up for Hipwood? The obvious response is he has the height and maybe the athleticism to go with Hipwood?
But all we saw from Ryan was a nervy performance where he was caught out of position in almost every contest he was in, he felt for body and was subsequently free-kicked for grabbing jumper or Hipwood high. Bevo said he was pretty much hung to dry by his his team-mates, but at some point Ryan needs to be able to show he can nullify an opponent in 1 on 1 contest, which he hasn't done much of so far.. and whilst Hipwood has some talent he is anything but a consistent performer.
Obviously we don't get the opportunity to see Ryan perform at training or in scratch matches, but the performance he gave against Brisbane was pretty much as we expected... and we have seen the exact same type of performances from the likes of Gowers & R.Smith when they've come into the team at the angst of many of our supporters... and the level of 'abuse' is pretty light here compared to the clubs social media pages.
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
For what it's worth, I don't have a problem with Gardner being on the list but we haven't got him ready to perform at the senior level yet and that won't help his confidence
Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
Mantis
So lets have the debate? Why was Gardner seen to be an effective match-up for Hipwood? The obvious response is he has the height and maybe the athleticism to go with Hipwood?
But all we saw from Ryan was a nervy performance where he was caught out of position in almost every contest he was in, he felt for body and was subsequently free-kicked for grabbing jumper or Hipwood high. Bevo said he was pretty much hung to dry by his his team-mates, but at some point Ryan needs to be able to show he can nullify an opponent in 1 on 1 contest, which he hasn't done much of so far.. and whilst Hipwood has some talent he is anything but a consistent performer.
Obviously we don't get the opportunity to see Ryan perform at training or in scratch matches, but the performance he gave against Brisbane was pretty much as we expected... and we have seen the exact same type of performances from the likes of Gowers & R.Smith when they've come into the team at the angst of many of our supporters... and the level of 'abuse' is pretty light here compared to the clubs social media pages.
Definitely not a 5 gamers fault in any way. He made pretty good position, worked hard and was on a hiding to nothing with the way the ball came in and the lack of 3rd man up support.
Regarding his inclusion, I guess we are all experts in hindsight, amazingly more than guys who do this for a living and see the entire picture. I'm trying to think of the best match up and maybe I think Wood or Cordy athletically. Wood was earmarked for Cameron and credit wheres its due that was a great decision on their most dangerous forward. Cordy probably would've been my choice, but with Wood occupied with Cameron there's no aerial chop out. So I'm guessing the plan was to have Gardner engage Hipwood with Cordy as spoiler, Wood if available but it just didn't work out it came in too fast.
Complete guess.
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
Mantis
So lets have the debate? Why was Gardner seen to be an effective match-up for Hipwood
For what it's worth i appreciate you going to the effort to break it down and expand on your thoughts on the matter. Thanks.
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
For me it’s about how the entire back six works together and what the roles are each week.
Gardner was clearly earmarked for Hipwood as he does demonstrate athleticism on the track and has some height to match him. What we missed in this game was the role usually shared by Wood and Crozier who can chop out in the air and run back to cover. Cameron quote rightly needed a plan and Wood was the only one left standing who could do it. No Crozier and no Wood in their normal roles means we decided on an extra tall, and Trengove was never a mobile match up for the Brisbane forward line with Lewis Young unavailable. Buku and Lachie Young are perhaps those midsize aerial talks that needed a go there without Crozier in.
Seeing Bailey Williams cement a position this year has been a positive but he is still highly shaky in the air yet provides a reasonably skilled kicking option after Caleb. Where does Doc Duryea fit here? Is he our negative defender who would have taken Cameron if fit?
The balance is no easy thing.
"I'll give him a hug before the first bounce and then I'll run into my pack and give them orders to rip him apart."
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
Mantis
But all we saw from Ryan was a nervy performance where he was caught out of position in almost every contest he was in, he felt for body and was subsequently free-kicked for grabbing jumper or Hipwood high. Bevo said he was pretty much hung to dry by his his team-mates, but at some point Ryan needs to be able to show he can nullify an opponent in 1 on 1 contest, which he hasn't done much of so far.. and whilst Hipwood has some talent he is anything but a consistent performer.
By extension the question has to also be why we got rid of Roberts at the end of 2019 and retained/gave his spot to Gardiner? Roberts was by no means an elite defender, but I haven't seen in any of Gardiner's games to date the positional awareness, body skills or general defensive nous that good defenders have. He is a kid being played when he is so far off being ready its sad.
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
FrediKanoute
By extension the question has to also be why we got rid of Roberts at the end of 2019 and retained/gave his spot to Gardiner? Roberts was by no means an elite defender, but I haven't seen in any of Gardiner's games to date the positional awareness, body skills or general defensive nous that good defenders have. He is a kid being played when he is so far off being ready its sad.
I think the coach is placing a premium on that the defenders need to have some pace. It's the most likely reason why Trengove hasn't been in the mix this season and almost certainly the reason why Roberts wasn't used much in his last season with us
Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
GVGjr
I think the coach is placing a premium on that the defenders need to have some pace. It's the most likely reason why Trengove hasn't been in the mix this season and almost certainly the reason why Roberts wasn't used much in his last season with us
I think you are right.
Looking at Trengove the other night, he was very slow. We know he likes English because he gets around the ground and has a bit of pace for a big man.
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
bornadog
I think you are right.
Looking at Trengove the other night, he was very slow. We know he likes English because he gets around the ground and has a bit of pace for a big man.
It's strange when we have a slowish midfield that we need quicker talls.
Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
GVGjr
It's strange when we have a slowish midfield that we need quicker talls.
From my untrained eye, our midfield is grunt and does their work in-tight and the attack and creation is to come from our running defenders such as JJ, Crozier, Daniel, Gardner etc.
More of an In Bruges guy?
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
Mantis
So lets have the debate? Why was Gardner seen to be an effective match-up for Hipwood? The obvious response is he has the height and maybe the athleticism to go with Hipwood?
But all we saw from Ryan was a nervy performance where he was caught out of position in almost every contest he was in...
So - We are talking about selection so don't 'worry' about the outcome. We can't add comments on what happened in here because when the team was picked it hadn't happened...it is pretty easy to get things right when you have seen how it plays out!
I think you nailed it. Gardner was selected to play on Hipwood because he has obviously shown an ability to play on a fast moving 200cm player that others on the list haven't (whether he has or hasn't is immaterial). Alternatively, he was seen the best card in a bad deck and if that's the case we are actually in more trouble than we realise.
I guess I can see why Gardner was chosen ahead of Le Young (zones off, interceptor) or Trengove (seen as too slow) if Hipwood was the intended match-up. What I would have hoped by now is one of those 3 players had achieved "He'll figure it out" status where no matter the match-up the coach had faith in them to do the job (Crozier has this, somehow Wood has this, Williams is close I reckon) rather than it having to be a debate every week...or maybe it is only a debate in our minds and Gardner is a clear #1 option for opposition talls in the mind of the coach?
Now - maybe the #1 option should be Le Young - like everyone else I would have thought he would be an established player by now - but for whatever reason (ands we would all love the answer) he isn't. Why can't we get this info? What has he done wrong? Will we ever know??
What should I tell her? She's going to ask.