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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
RM (among a few others), do you actually take the time to read posts or do you interpret what you want to suit your narrative?
Nobody said we MISS Hrovat. Or Stevens. They DID provide us reasonable depth, of which now when we have injuries, we replace players with kids who aren't ready or players nowhere near the standard.
Pretty easy concept to grasp I'd have thought.
Might take my holiday from here for a while
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
The Bulldogs Bite
First of all, it's nothing to do with me not liking Bevo - which is categorically untrue. I've met him personally a number of times and sat in on a couple of private meetings mind you, he's a great guy and I love what he did for our club. That doesn't mean I won't question him (or anyone else) if I don't agree with what I'm seeing.
I don't know how any sensible, rational supporter wouldn't question what Bevo and the club have done with the footy dept after seeing us go 36-42 since our premiership. That is a very long sample size of bog ordinary performance, bordering on sub-standard.
Every single question simply has to be asked by Gordon and Baines as to what has happened and why, in all aspects of the footy dept, since the pre-season of 2017. I don't think any free-thinking supporter would consider this a controversial viewpoint. Geelong did something similar from the top down after 1 under performing season (2006) not 3 and a half seasons, and they have basically been finalists at worst and contenders most years since 2007
"Look at me mate. Look at me. I'm flyin'"
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Great debate guys, cheers.
I was thinking about our list since 2016 and Whately's recent comments regarding that it was our choice we have such a young list like it was a bad thing. Sure it was our choice but what other choice did we have? Of course in a perfect world you keep a premiership team together as long as you can, but with all the retirements, alleged unrest and decisions to go elsewhere for a fresh start from key experience players, Im not sure what other choice we had.
But then again, I'm an Internet poster and Bevo is a premiership coach so draw your own conclusions.
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
1eyedog
Great debate guys, cheers.
I was thinking about our list since 2016 and Whately's recent comments regarding that it was our choice we have such a young list like it was a bad thing. Sure it was our choice but what other choice did we have? Of course in a perfect world you keep a premiership team together as long as you can, but with all the retirements, alleged unrest and decisions to go elsewhere for a fresh start from key experience players, Im not sure what other choice we had.
If you look at the premiership team and take away the retirements, then we only lost 4 players, then Hamling is the one I would have loved to have kept as he would fit in with the current philosphy.
FFC: Established 1883
Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
Sedat
I don't know how any sensible, rational supporter wouldn't question what Bevo and the club have done with the footy dept after seeing us go 36-42 since our premiership. That is a very long sample size of bog ordinary performance, bordering on sub-standard.
Every single question simply has to be asked by Gordon and Baines as to what has happened and why, in all aspects of the footy dept, since the pre-season of 2017. I don't think any free-thinking supporter would consider this a controversial viewpoint. Geelong did something similar from the top down after 1 under performing season (2006) not 3 and a half seasons, and they have basically been finalists at worst and contenders most years since 2007
Maybe cut the mayonnaise down two a standard two egg Sedat, three's making you seem intolerant.
I'm a supporter who thinks our messaging has been really shit since the premiership, we didn't know - in my view - how to tell hungry/ lusting supporters that we've reached the pinnacle and need to rebuild to reach it again as quickly and sustainably as possible after we realised everyone was still in party mode in 2017 and we got injuries and couldn't recover.
Additionally I can confidently say that our performances have matched our list profile and churn since that time, and will continue to do so until we address its serious deficiencies. A good litmus test is to look at our win loss record, versus churn and player availability and profile, and think what our expectations would be had we not won the premiership in 2016.
Our continuity has been dreadful, and we've found out the hard way that the balance being tipped towards youth comes with consequences. Sure we can suppose that we should have tried harder to keep players or scout players better than we have done, but who really knows what we offered versus what we didn't to players to retain or attract them.
So anyway, we find ourselves with a coach who is rebuilding the club/ list (and has been since 2018) having made three out of five finals series, having won a premiership and still in the race to earn another finals berth, and shit's going crazy. We're ignoring every fact that doesn't suit our own biases to push our viewpoints because that's just what we do these days, and we're questioning the freedom of thought of fellow members/ supporters if they don't take the same approach to assessing our position.
*!*!*!*! I wish there was a pandemic out there to worry about.
Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
We have put a lot of players through the squad in recent history. But have never really established continuity. The bottom six feels like it's always being shuffled.
Grant has spoken about trying to get a particular number of games played together + avg games played in to the 22. I'd be interested to track what that looks like over the course of the year from here on in. Feels like we aren't building that continuity at all.
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
jeemak
Maybe cut the mayonnaise down two a standard two egg Sedat, three's making you seem intolerant.
I'm a supporter who thinks our messaging has been really shit since the premiership, we didn't know - in my view - how to tell hungry/ lusting supporters that we've reached the pinnacle and need to rebuild to reach it again as quickly and sustainably as possible after we realised everyone was still in party mode in 2017 and we got injuries and couldn't recover.
Additionally I can confidently say that our performances have matched our list profile and churn since that time, and will continue to do so until we address its serious deficiencies. A good litmus test is to look at our win loss record, versus churn and player availability and profile, and think what our expectations would be had we not won the premiership in 2016.
Our continuity has been dreadful, and we've found out the hard way that the balance being tipped towards youth comes with consequences. Sure we can suppose that we should have tried harder to keep players or scout players better than we have done, but who really knows what we offered versus what we didn't to players to retain or attract them.
So anyway, we find ourselves with a coach who is rebuilding the club/ list (and has been since 2018) having made three out of five finals series, having won a premiership and still in the race to earn another finals berth, and shit's going crazy. We're ignoring every fact that doesn't suit our own biases to push our viewpoints because that's just what we do these days, and we're questioning the freedom of thought of fellow members/ supporters if they don't take the same approach to assessing our position.
*!*!*!*! I wish there was a pandemic out there to worry about.
That's a very reasonable viewpoint. Dare I say it sensible, rational, and free-thinking
Another viewpoint is that 2016 has clouded the water somewhat. When Bevo got the job, I'm sure his business plan did not have us winning a premiership in year 2 of his tenure. I also don't think it would have had us treading water in years 3-6 of his tenure either, which we have done (notwithstanding year 6 is only half run).
FWIW, a comprehensive review of the footy dept operations should be seen as a positive experience and not a negative one. Clearly there are areas in our footy dept that have contributed to our underwhelming 36-42 W/L formline in years 3-6 of the Bevo plan, and the opportunity to review all areas with a clinical and rational eye should not be wasted.
It's not about 'sack Bevo'. It is about properly analysing what has worked and what has not worked, and to make the necessary changes to our footy dept so that the areas of underperformance can be restructured to give Bevo and the rest of the footy dept the best chance of sustained long-term improvement and success.
"Look at me mate. Look at me. I'm flyin'"
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
1eyedog
Great debate guys, cheers.
I was thinking about our list since 2016 and Whately's recent comments regarding that it was our choice we have such a young list like it was a bad thing. Sure it was our choice but what other choice did we have? Of course in a perfect world you keep a premiership team together as long as you can, but with all the retirements, alleged unrest and decisions to go elsewhere for a fresh start from key experience players, Im not sure what other choice we had.
Wait... choice?
Wingard, Impey, Martin... and by rumour we made offers to Moore.
Then the successes - Crozier, Keath, Bruce.
Let's not pretend Bevo just loves young players and doesn't want experience. We chase experience every year.
Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Am I right in thinking we’ve had a bit of an issue with the middle aged bracket historically ? (for a reason that escapes me).I seem to remember maybe in the rocket days we had that big gap of players in their mid 20s. Wonder if this is a legacy of that rather than by design.
Having said that clearly we’ve had time to rectify, just thought it interesting.
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
Sedat
FWIW, a comprehensive review of the footy dept operations should be seen as a positive experience and not a negative one. Clearly there are areas in our footy dept that have contributed to our underwhelming 36-42 W/L formline in years 3-6 of the Bevo plan, and the opportunity to review all areas with a clinical and rational eye should not be wasted.
A review of the performance of the footy department should be done at the end of every year, whether successful or not. In corporate life, some businesses do it well and others just brush over it. I would like a proper review of the footy department every year to ensure we have the right people and the right strategies to move forward and become a better team year on year.
Because of the financial situation of the AFL, all footy departments will be reviewed heavily as the budget is rumoured to be sliced by $3 million, which means you need a thorough look at every role, and work out who you need who you don't need and what deficiencies there are.
FFC: Established 1883
Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.
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Sedat thanked for this post
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
Grantysghost
Am I right in thinking we’ve had a bit of an issue with the middle aged bracket historically ? (for a reason that escapes me).I seem to remember maybe in the rocket days we had that big gap of players in their mid 20s. Wonder if this is a legacy of that rather than by design.
Having said that clearly we’ve had time to rectify, just thought it interesting.
We did have that issue in the Rocket days, and it was something he inherited from the previous regime? Ages 23 to 27 were lacking.
I think our middle bracket now, which are the players that are left on the list from the premiership team, are ok. For probably a long time now, we don't have any players in the 200 plus bracket. These guys are usually in the twilight of their career, but also they help stabilise the list, and help produce consistent performance. Losing Murphy, Moyd, The Glove, Picken has left a big hole. The next most experienced are players that have come in from other clubs like Suckling and Trengove.
At the end of next year - going into 2022, we will have guys like Bont, Macrae, Libba, Wallis, JJ, Hunter getting close to 200 games.
The worry for me is the next tier down.
FFC: Established 1883
Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
The Bulldogs Bite
RM (among a few others), do you actually take the time to read posts or do you interpret what you want to suit your narrative?
Nobody said we MISS Hrovat. Or Stevens. They DID provide us reasonable depth, of which now when we have injuries, we replace players with kids who aren't ready or players nowhere near the standard.
Pretty easy concept to grasp I'd have thought.
Might take my holiday from here for a while
We dont miss them and we dont miss the depth that they provided. Even when Libba has been out we werent missing them.
Players to run through the midfield is not somewhere that we lack depth.
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Re: Picking teams is really hard.
Originally Posted by
bornadog
If you look at the premiership team and take away the retirements, then we only lost 4 players, then Hamling is the one I would have loved to have kept as he would fit in with the current philosphy.
The biggest losses IMO has been in the area of onfield leadership. Players like Picken, Matthew Boyd and Morris were able to dig deep when the going got tough. Roughead and Tom Boyd also had a good 2016 finals campaign. We have also taken a long time to replace a Dahlhaus small forward type.
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