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  1. #31
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    Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozza View Post
    Of course we have been young by choice and continue to hide behind it. It is the most obvious obseravtion about the side and is backed by facts. Sure we've had some injuries, but when push comes to shove, we'd rather pick players with less than 5 games experience then pick our depth players WITH experience or mature bodies.
    Who are these players you talk about? What facts do you talk about?

    List of players with more than 100 games:

    8 Trengove, Jackson 186 29yr 9mth 2 Nov 1990 197cm 97kg Calder Cannons Defender
    1 Suckling, Matthew 177 32yr 25 Jul 1988 187cm 85kg Wagga Tigers Defender
    10 Wood, Easton 168 30yr 11mth 4 Sep 1989 187cm 86kg Camperdown Defender
    11 Macrae, Jackson 152 26yr 3 Aug 1994 191cm 85kg Oakleigh Chargers Midfield
    3 Wallis, Mitchell 144 27yr 9mth 24 Oct 1992 186cm 85kg Calder Cannons Midfield
    Forward
    21 Liberatore, Thomas 141 28yr 2mth 16 May 1992 183cm 83kg Calder Cannons Midfield
    4 Bontempelli, Marcus 138 24yr 8mth 24 Nov 1995 193cm 93kg Northern Knights Midfield
    39 Johannisen, Jason 137 27yr 9mth 8 Nov 1992 180cm 82kg East Fremantle Defender
    15 Duryea, Taylor 132 29yr 3mth 24 Apr 1991 179cm 80kg Murray Bushrangers Defender
    7 Hunter, Lachlan 131 25yr 7mth 13 Dec 1994 183cm 82kg Western Jets Midfield
    17 Bruce, Josh 124 28yr 2mth 8 Jun 1992 197cm 101kg Canberra Forward
    9 Crozier, Hayden 117 26yr 7mth 24 Dec 1993 185cm 79kg Eastern Ranges Defender
    29 Dickson, Tory 113 32yr 10mth 26 Sep 1987 184cm 85kg Bendigo Bombers Forward
    35 Daniel, Caleb 102 24yr 1mth 7 J
    Who should be playing and is currently available?
    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  2. #32
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    Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozza View Post
    Of course we have been young by choice and continue to hide behind it. It is the most obvious obseravtion about the side and is backed by facts. Sure we've had some injuries, but when push comes to shove, we'd rather pick players with less than 5 games experience then pick our depth players WITH experience or mature bodies.
    I don't think this helps us develop or build the list either.
    Playing Lewis and Lachlan Young and the likes of Greene might have been better for the team

    Why do you think we've gone down the option of picking the draftees rather than some of the other younger players?
    Start each day with a task completed. Find someone to help you through life. Respect everyone.
    Know that life is not fair and that you will fail often. But if take you take some risks, step up when the times are toughest, face down the bullies, lift up the downtrodden and never, ever give up if you do these things, then the next generation and the generations that follow will live in a world far better than the one we have today.
    And what started here will indeed have changed the world for the better.

  3. #33
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    Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

    How about looking at the list above and telling me who are the guys that should be playing? There are only two players that haven't featured the whole season, Trengove (1 game) and Dickson.

    Instead of posters having a go at the club for being young, tell me who are the players they wish to see who will not make us young.

    50 to 100 game players:

    22 Lloyd, Sam 87 30yr 5mth 3 Mar 1990 180cm 81kg Frankston Forward
    16 McLean, Toby 86 24yr 6mth 31 Jan 1996 180cm 79kg Oakleigh Chargers Forward
    12 Cordy, Zaine 81 23yr 9mth 27 Oct 1996 193cm 90kg Geelong Falcons Defender
    5 Dunkley, Josh 71 23yr 7mth 9 Jan 1997 190cm 88kg Gippsland Power Midfield
    46 Jong, Lin 64 27yr 2mth 4 Jun 1993 188cm 87kg Oakleigh Chargers Midfield
    31 Dale, Bailey 58 24yr 22 Jul 1996 183cm 82kg Dandenong Stingrays Forward
    13 Schache, Josh 56 22yr 11mth 21 Aug 1997 199cm 94kg Murray Bushrangers Forward
    34 Williams, Bailey 52 22yr 10mth 10 Oct 1997 187cm 85kg Glenelg Defender
    20 Richards, Ed 51 21yr 1mth 3 Jul 1999 185cm 79


    All playing except Jong and Schache

    I don't get why there is this commentary that we are purposely playing young players? We are picking players that are available.

    If we play players in the last batch, ie 0 to 50, we will be even more inexperienced????
    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

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  5. #34
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    Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

    Best 22 players -Hunter (131) Jong (64), Suckling (177) Duryea (132) have experience but are either injured or out due to other circumstances.

    These are facts.
    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  6. #35
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    Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    Best 22 players -Hunter (131) Jong (64), Suckling (177) Duryea (132) have experience but are either injured or out due to other circumstances.

    These are facts.
    It is also a fact that we have opted for a younger list.

    For varying reasons we have moved on capable players in Hamling, Roughead, Dahlhaus and Stringer but kept players on the list that the coach wouldn't play such as Roberts and Campbell as well as the extraordinary time we have retained rookies like Roarke Smith and Brad Lynch as we did with Josh Prudden.

    We could have picked up a delisted free agent like Ricky Henderson or Lachie Henderson instead of hanging on to some of those out of loyalty. There have been opportunities to add more experience, but we have chosen not to do so.
    Life is to be Enjoyed not Endured

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  8. #36
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    Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

    I think it's pretty clear that we have chosen to be young through list management decisions.

    Given the young list there has been little the selectors can do from week to week to increase the age and experience of the team.

  9. #37
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    Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

    Its not necessarily about players over 100 games experience. We all know there is more grey area to it BAD. Often it is about choosing the debutant off the back of no form rather than the 2-4 year player who is moved to no-man's land.

    We acquired Schache, yet we choose not to play him. If he has one bad game, he is straight out, whereas others get countless chances to prove they don't cut it.

    Lewis Young debuted in 2017 and played 7 games. In the following 3 years has played only 8 more games in total. Yet we choose to put Gardner in on the back of proving NOTHING, and looking completely at sea in each and every game.

    Tory Dickson has seemingly vanished. But Gowers and Weightman are given 3 chances each. Why keep Tory on the list if players significantly inferior to him and this point in time are preferred. And what was the thinking around drafting a mature age player in Cavarra?

    We went after Trengove, now have put a line through him because he doesn't cover the ground. I'm not a big fan, but against sides with very tall forwards, surely he should be getting considered on a horses for courses basis.

    We're incredibly keen to rush in some debutants, by far less keen to stick with players in their 2-4 year range and get some continuity into them. But continuity is not really our thing this year clearly. Last year we were the 3rd highest scoring team in the league, and most of our big scores came after a sustained run where the forward line had some continuity as a group with Schache, Dickson, Dale, Naughton and Lloyd all there.

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  11. #38
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    Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

    Ozza's point is bang on and is what the numerous posts displaying frustration with a young selection bias mean.

    It's a combination of our inability to develop players once on the list, a lack of valueing older role players, and a love for throwing the newest kids at the club into the mix.
    I should leave it alone but you're not right

  12. #39
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    Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe Man View Post
    Given the young list there has been little the selectors can do from week to week to increase the age and experience of the team.
    Agree

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe Man View Post
    I think it's pretty clear that we have chosen to be young through list management decisions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog Joe View Post
    It is also a fact that we have opted for a younger list.

    For varying reasons we have moved on capable players in Hamling, Roughead, Dahlhaus and Stringer but kept players on the list that the coach wouldn't play such as Roberts and Campbell as well as the extraordinary time we have retained rookies like Roarke Smith and Brad Lynch as we did with Josh Prudden.

    We could have picked up a delisted free agent like Ricky Henderson or Lachie Henderson instead of hanging on to some of those out of loyalty. There have been opportunities to add more experience, but we have chosen not to do so.
    We had a number of players either retired or delisted. The List manager has tried hard to bring in experience and over the last 4 odd years we have brought in Suckling, Duryea, Trengove, Lloyd, Bruce and Keath (mature not in games though).

    My point is, we aren't trying to be heroes by picking the youngest team every week, it is just the make up we have ended with, and I really don't understand why posters keep harping on about it, or writing to Gerard complaining we are hiding behind it or making it an excuse. It is just a factor we are stuck with for now.

    Team selection is a different issue see thread here
    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  13. #40
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    Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

    Quote Originally Posted by soupaman View Post
    Ozza's point is bang on and is what the numerous posts displaying frustration with a young selection bias mean.

    It's a combination of our inability to develop players once on the list, a lack of valueing older role players, and a love for throwing the newest kids at the club into the mix.
    But it is not a young selection bias, we don't have any experienced players like I laid out?
    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  14. #41
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    Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

    I understand your sentiment BAD, and thanks for laying out the (lack of) experience on the list, it's a stark reminder of our predicament. However the point that others are making I think is more a commentary on the progression of players between 0 and 50 games.

    To this point I have reservations about our recruiting and development more than our list management.

    The guys we've brought in from other clubs have largely served us well - Crozier, Suckling, Duryea, Keath, Lloyd have all I think been fine acquisitions in the right age bracket. Bruce can and will deliver more after getting his body right. Trengove I think deserves more games than he's getting but he's a very limited player and not the answer. Schache can still be a good AFL player but both he and the coaches need to understand his limitations.
    Arguably we could have done more to hold onto Roughead, Dahlhaus and Stringer. Hamling we had no hope of keeping. Ditto Adams (injury cursed anyway). Then there's the early retirements of Smith, Redpath, Boyd and Biggs for different reasons out of our control. Overall I think list management in a trading sense gets a 'tick', given the circumstances.

    As for recruiting from the drafts, we've done reasonably well with our higher picks in recent years, but our 'roughies' have delivered basically nothing consequential.

    Collins, Lynch, Goetz, Lew Young, Greene, Mullenger-McHugh, Prudden (had the talent not the luck), Porter, Gowers, R. Smith, Gardner, Cavarra, Hayes, La. Young, Sweet.

    There's still scope for some of the above players to 'make it', but it's not a great track record, and as always it's difficult to assess whether it's a development or recruiting issue. Clearly for me team selection has played some role in stimying some of these players. Lewis Young should 100% be selected ahead of Gardner, who is simply not capable at AFL level (we can all see it, why can't the MC?) Gowers on 2020 form is a liability and has taken games away from Cavarra and Greene, as has Weightman for little return himself.

    I'd suggest that quite some number of these guys will be out the door at the end of the year, at the worst possible time, in a compromised draft year. From reports Ugle-Hagan can play but if I understand the bidding system correctly we'll have to shift all of our remaining picks to the back of the draft. That's a big price to pay for a player with no final year of junior footy.

    Some interesting times ahead. I pin my hopes on the growth of Richards, English, Lipinski, McLean, Cordy, Dale, Vandermeer and West - all of them can play at AFL level but now need to take another step forward for us to improve.
    'And the Western suburbs erupt!'

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  16. #42
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    Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorlibo View Post
    I understand your sentiment BAD, and thanks for laying out the (lack of) experience on the list, it's a stark reminder of our predicament. However the point that others are making I think is more a commentary on the progression of players between 0 and 50 games.

    To this point I have reservations about our recruiting and development more than our list management.

    The guys we've brought in from other clubs have largely served us well - Crozier, Suckling, Duryea, Keath, Lloyd have all I think been fine acquisitions in the right age bracket. Bruce can and will deliver more after getting his body right. Trengove I think deserves more games than he's getting but he's a very limited player and not the answer. Schache can still be a good AFL player but both he and the coaches need to understand his limitations.
    Arguably we could have done more to hold onto Roughead, Dahlhaus and Stringer. Hamling we had no hope of keeping. Ditto Adams (injury cursed anyway). Then there's the early retirements of Smith, Redpath, Boyd and Biggs for different reasons out of our control. Overall I think list management in a trading sense gets a 'tick', given the circumstances.

    As for recruiting from the drafts, we've done reasonably well with our higher picks in recent years, but our 'roughies' have delivered basically nothing consequential.

    Collins, Lynch, Goetz, Lew Young, Greene, Mullenger-McHugh, Prudden (had the talent not the luck), Porter, Gowers, R. Smith, Gardner, Cavarra, Hayes, La. Young, Sweet.

    There's still scope for some of the above players to 'make it', but it's not a great track record, and as always it's difficult to assess whether it's a development or recruiting issue. Clearly for me team selection has played some role in stimying some of these players. Lewis Young should 100% be selected ahead of Gardner, who is simply not capable at AFL level (we can all see it, why can't the MC?) Gowers on 2020 form is a liability and has taken games away from Cavarra and Greene, as has Weightman for little return himself.

    I'd suggest that quite some number of these guys will be out the door at the end of the year, at the worst possible time, in a compromised draft year. From reports Ugle-Hagan can play but if I understand the bidding system correctly we'll have to shift all of our remaining picks to the back of the draft. That's a big price to pay for a player with no final year of junior footy.

    Some interesting times ahead. I pin my hopes on the growth of Richards, English, Lipinski, McLean, Cordy, Dale, Vandermeer and West - all of them can play at AFL level but now need to take another step forward for us to improve.
    Totally agree with you.

    I don't believe recruiting has been as good as we think. Very difficult to get pick one wrong (has happened of course), but the speculative picks haven't been brilliant.

    The discussion started off with the comments around we purposely want to look young every week and that is our excuse for losing and stop hiding behind it. Therefore I have proven we don't have the experience we would like.

    However, the progress of the 0 to 50 is a concern.

    33 Naughton, Aaron 46 20yr 8mth 30 Nov 1999 195cm 89kg Peel Thunder Forward
    42 Keath, Alex 41 28yr 6mth 20 Jan 1992 197cm 93kg Murray Bushrangers Defender
    27 Lipinski, Patrick 41 22yr 17 Jul 1998 187cm 84kg Northern Knights Midfield
    Forward
    44 English, Timothy 40 23yr 10 Aug 1997 205cm 93kg South Fremantle Ruck
    6 Smith, Bailey 34 19yr 8mth 7 Dec 2000 185cm 80kg Sandringham Dragons Midfield
    Forward
    26 Gowers, Billy 33 24yr 2mth 10 Jun 1996 187cm 87kg Oakleigh Chargers Forward
    37 Smith, Roarke R 18 23yr 11mth 11 Sep 1996 181cm 81kg Calder Cannons Midfield
    Forward
    2 Young, Lewis 15 21yr 7mth 20 Dec 1998 197cm 96kg Sturt Defender
    23 Vandermeer, Laitham 10 21yr 6mth 3 Feb 1999 180cm 77kg Murray Bushrangers Midfield
    Forward
    32 Hayes, Will 9 25yr 2mth 5 Jun 1995 181cm 77kg Footscray Vfl Midfield
    36 Lynch, Bradley 9 23yr 1mth 11 Jul 1997 187cm 79kg Swan Districts Defender
    40 Young, Lachie R 8 21yr 4mth 6 Apr 1999 189cm 81kg Mt Eliza Football Netball Club Defender
    14 West, Rhylee 6 20yr 12 Jul 2000 181cm 82kg Calder Cannons Forward
    43 Gardner, Ryan R 5 23yr 2mth 1 Jun 1997 197cm 93kg Burnie Dockers Forward
    30 Greene, Fergus 5 22yr 7mth 20 Dec 1997 187cm 75kg Bendigo Pioneers Forward
    19 Weightman, Cody 3 19yr 6mth 15 Jan 2001 177cm 73kg Dandenong Stingrays Forward
    18 Butler, Louis 2 18yr 11mth 26 Aug 2001 184cm 75kg Sandringham Dragons Defender
    Midfield
    25 Cavarra, Ben 1 24yr 7mth 20 Dec 1995 173cm 72kg Williamstown Forward
    28 Porter, Callum 1 21yr 5mth 22 Feb 1999 182cm 76kg Gippsland Power Midfield
    38 Garcia, Riley 0 19yr 6mth 30 Jan 2001 177cm 70kg Swan Districts Midfield
    24 Khamis, Buku R 0 20yr 4mth 24 Mar 2000 189cm 82kg Western Jets Defender
    41 Sweet, Jordon R 0 22yr 6mth 2 Feb 1998 203cm 106kg North Adelaide Ruck

    Hayes, Greene, Gardner, Gowers, Porter, Lynch are a worry. I still have hope for Lew Young, and there are some untried players there. Overall not a lot to worry about as we normally delist about 7 to 8 per year.
    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

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  18. #43
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    Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

    The problem with the side isn't age it's balance.

    There is a reason when opposition sides get a run on we can't stop the momentum. We just have too many of the same type
    of players/characters.

    There are a number of players that Bevo loves for what they bring when we are rolling, but they don't offer much defensively.

    ie Dale, McLean, JJ, Macrae, Lipinski, Daniel, Bont, Richards, as an example are all very much attacking players, but once the ball has left the contest, they aren't big chase down defensive players.

    We get scored against way too easily on the rebound because we aren't prepared to work hard enough the other way to get the ball back.

    I just think the balance isn't quite there at the moment, we are a couple of hard nuts through middle short. You can also add that Dunkley is not at his best since the recent injury, Bont isn't moving like he should, Smith is probably getting more attention and is having lean patch, same with English. Without our engine room at it's best, i think we have too many light bodied players that don't want to run hard defensively and this is exposing us.

    Lin Jong is a great example. Earlier in the year he was throwing himself into contests and providing a defensive threat, adding pressure, and we were starting to play some good football that was enabling the creative players to shine.
    We lose Dunkley and Jong who are 2 of our strongest bodied runners, and we bring in Dale, Lipinski, Lloyd effectively as replacements.

    You can also add the poor selection of a 3rd defensive option at many times this year. Why we keep going for Gardner is beyond me. Not sure who thought he would be a better match up for Hipwood than either of the Youngs or even Khamis. Hipwood is a leading forward not a big marking one, yet we went for Gardner and he was lost at sea.

    I don't think it's all doom and gloom however, we just need to adjust things a little to get ourselves back on track.

  19. #44
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    Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberdoggie View Post
    The problem with the side isn't age it's balance.

    There is a reason when opposition sides get a run on we can't stop the momentum. We just have too many of the same type
    of players/characters.

    There are a number of players that Bevo loves for what they bring when we are rolling, but they don't offer much defensively.

    ie Dale, McLean, JJ, Macrae, Lipinski, Daniel, Bont, Richards, as an example are all very much attacking players, but once the ball has left the contest, they aren't big chase down defensive players.

    We get scored against way too easily on the rebound because we aren't prepared to work hard enough the other way to get the ball back.

    I just think the balance isn't quite there at the moment, we are a couple of hard nuts through middle short. You can also add that Dunkley is not at his best since the recent injury, Bont isn't moving like he should, Smith is probably getting more attention and is having lean patch, same with English. Without our engine room at it's best, i think we have too many light bodied players that don't want to run hard defensively and this is exposing us.

    Lin Jong is a great example. Earlier in the year he was throwing himself into contests and providing a defensive threat, adding pressure, and we were starting to play some good football that was enabling the creative players to shine.
    We lose Dunkley and Jong who are 2 of our strongest bodied runners, and we bring in Dale, Lipinski, Lloyd effectively as replacements.

    You can also add the poor selection of a 3rd defensive option at many times this year. Why we keep going for Gardner is beyond me. Not sure who thought he would be a better match up for Hipwood than either of the Youngs or even Khamis. Hipwood is a leading forward not a big marking one, yet we went for Gardner and he was lost at sea.

    I don't think it's all doom and gloom however, we just need to adjust things a little to get ourselves back on track.
    Agree with all you have said.

    Just a reminder, Buku is only 189cm, Hipwood is 204cm
    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

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