List Management for 2020/21

[Danjul]

I think he hasn't got the fight in him to be a proper forward. I know Danjul has been pretty keen on him there with a lot of stats, but I really think best case scenario is a Josh Jenkins type who plays well when the team is but goes quiet when he is needed and in the big games. Maybe thats enough, I mean not every player has to be a matchwinner and having someone who can help capitalise on your teams ascendancy is a good thing but I've been really optimistic with Schache and it's been mostly to my dissapointment.

I do however think there is merit in trying him down back. It worked for Liam Jones (who tbf approached contests very differently to Schache but had some severe weaknesses that Josh doesn't share) who is pretty good now, and I can't see Schache being any less physical than Gardner. Even Cordy I have queries on long term so if Schache can show with an extended run of form there an ability to impact the game with his height, mobility and footskills coming out of defence it's certainly worth a shot. I mean physically having a 200cm key defender would be handy considering the rise of the Kings amongst others (I'm not sure there are others but roll with it).

Just so everyone knows what the selection committee thinks is a proper forward.

Bruce played 11 games from rounds 6 to 18 as a key forward. Rested in one.

In that time he kicked goals in only 4 of them, for a total of 5 goals.

He got 2 goals in the 7 matches leading up to the final - I think that was a month and a half.
He got 2 possessions in round 10. Selected the next game.

In the final he showed no positives.

Yet everyone makes excuses for him and sees him as our star forward next season. This makes no sense for forward planning.

Good luck to all of the players, particularly Bruce if our success rests on him . I hope they all have a great 2021.

[bornadog]

500K is Sam McClure speculation, it might be a lot lower than that. I wouldn't pay that for him and would rather give Dunkley the pay bump but I don't accept he is unproven. He is looking for more opportunities to play senior football

11 games average 12 disposals - he is unproven.

[GVGjr]

11 games average 12 disposals - he is unproven.

He's got a thing or two to prove but by all means take that position

[soupman]

Just so everyone knows what the selection committee thinks is a proper forward.

Bruce played 11 games from rounds 6 to 18 as a key forward. Rested in one.

In that time he kicked goals in only 4 of them, for a total of 5 goals.

He got 2 goals in the 7 matches leading up to the final - I think that was a month and a half.
He got 2 possessions in round 10. Selected the next game.

In the final he showed no positives.

Yet everyone makes excuses for him and sees him as our star forward next season. This makes no sense for forward planning.

Good luck to all of the players, particularly Bruce if our success rests on him . I hope they all have a great 2021.

Mate I am firmly in the "Bruce's 2020 is up there with the worst individual seasons of all time and I have barely any faith that he will improve on that next year" camp.

Bruce being shit doesn't make Schache good but.

[soupman]

I think putting our hat in the ring for Caldwell is a good move. Unsure how close he was to nominating us but if we say we are happy to sign him on a 4 year contract on say $350-400K maybe he starts looking at that as a decent option when Essendon is stuck with other trades and he is faced with the psd or walking back to GWS with his tail between his legs.

[jazzadogs]

If Hannan has replaced Gowers on the list, has the list improved?

If Stef Martin replaces Trengove on the list, has the list improved?

If Treloar replaces Dunkley on the list, has the list improved?

It seems like a very sideways trade period for us at the moment, at best.

[kruder]

Have we done anything to address the lack of mongrel in our side after being brutalised by the Giants and laying 41 tackles in a basketball match against the Saints? Rendell agrees with me which is of concern but I think he is right on this one.

I feel we can make the finals again but when the whips are a cracking there are too many players on our list that will go missing. That's what holds me back from trading Dunks because he is one of the few in this group that is prepared to get their hands dirty.

I know a player like Jong isn't so called sexy, but give me his hospital handballs during the year rather than Lippa's efforts to tackle comes finals time.

I like Dale, Schache and Lippa as individuals but wth the list we have we just cant afford to keep all of them. Lloyd is the first one I'd move on happy to pay him out.

[soupman]

If Hannan has replaced Gowers on the list, has the list improved?

Yes.

If Stef Martin replaces Trengove on the list, has the list improved?

If we are prepared to play Martin, yes, as we never played Trengove. This question could be framed as Martin vs Goetz and be just as valid. Trengove was a non-person as far as our MC was concerned.

If Treloar replaces Dunkley on the list, has the list improved?

Depends how you rate having a burst mid to add to our rotations vs having a competent and big bodied forward mid.

It seems like a very sideways trade period for us at the moment, at best.

Especially as I don't think any of them improve on our weaknesses and make us a better side overall, *slight chance Martin gets games as number one ruck and is good excepted.

I'm really hoping some names come out in the next few days that actually offer us something different to the list. They don't necessarily have to be better than the guys they are replacing, but if they can offer us something we don't have thats good.

[GVGjr]

If Hannan has replaced Gowers on the list, has the list improved?

If Stef Martin replaces Trengove on the list, has the list improved?

If Treloar replaces Dunkley on the list, has the list improved?

It seems like a very sideways trade period for us at the moment, at best.

All good questions and observations JD.

[soupman]

Have we done anything to address the lack of mongrel in our side

I feel we can make the finals again but when the whips are a cracking there are too many players on our list that will go missing. That's what holds me back from trading Dunks because he is one of the few in this group that is prepared to get their hands dirty.

I see your point but not sure losing Dunks changes it.

He was part of the midfield group bullied in 2019 and is way to much of a nice guy to willingly embrace the niggle like that. He was good in 2016 (as were a lot of others) but hasn't been since which to me suggests it is an overall culture and attitude thing as opposed to missing the right individuals (although individuals do help).

[bornadog]

Have we done anything to address the lack of mongrel in our side after being brutalised by the Giants and laying 41 tackles in a basketball match against the Saints? .

Kruder, I can't agree with you, I think we have matured from last year. Against the Giants - round 3 we stood up to them in every aggressive move they made. No other team has brutalised us this year.

Not sure why you bring up the 41 tackles against the Saints again? They had 32 tackles???

On tackling we were ranked 8th this year on 902 tackles, same as Saints, but ahead of a lot of teams you would expect to be right up there - Blues, Giants, WC all below us.

[jazzadogs]

All good questions and observations JD.

FWIW my answers are:
Hannan > Gowers
Trengrove = Martin (slow, lacking mobility, good in physical contests, old - maybe a slight edge to Martin for his years as a ruckman)
Treloar is a very different player to Dunkley, and that is the toughest one to answer - but I think we lose just as much from the four year of prime 23-27yo Dunkley, as we gain from 27-32yo Treloar's extra burst speed.

I don't know who I really want to improve our list - McDonald-Tipungwuti would be good and managed to kick 19 goals while being as poorly conditioned as Bruce this year, Goldstein would be fantastic but unobtainable, I don't like Stephenson. It's really tough.

[kruder]

Kruder, I can't agree with you, I think we have matured from last year. Against the Giants - round 3 we stood up to them in every aggressive move they made. No other team has brutalised us this year.

Not sure why you bring up the 41 tackles against the Saints again? They had 32 tackles???

On tackling we were ranked 8th this year on 902 tackles, same as Saints, but ahead of a lot of teams you would expect to be right up there - Blues, Giants, WC all below us.

You can disagree with me all good. How did the saints go the next week? The final that we played against them was lengths below the top 4, it was like a standard Saturday game there was no intensity, minimal pressure, missed tackles all over the joint.

Go back and watch 16 or in the matter any Richmond final there is a significant difference.

[Danjul]

Mate I am firmly in the "Bruce's 2020 is up there with the worst individual seasons of all time and I have barely any faith that he will improve on that next year" camp.

Bruce being shit doesn't make Schache good but.

I have liked what I have seen from Schache, but that’s only my opinion. Others don’t agree.

But when Bruce wasn’t performing we still had Young and Trengove. Trengove would have been helpful in the ruck. Could have kept Dunkley doing what he does best.

4 talls but selectors were infatuated with one.

I suppose I will have to wait until historians reveal what was going on at the Dogs during the last 4 puzzling, and in my opinion, unsuccessful years.

[jeemak]

Hard to know what the market will be for any of those players you’ve mentioned GVG. A lot of it depends on role / circumstance but I look at a side like WCE and think Dale could be handy as a full time medium forward with them, and potentially with a side like Port too. Ready to go, plays a role and will be more effective full time forward in a side that moves the ball quickly and / or delivers well.

Schache another interesting one. Hard to see him getting a regular game next season behind Naughton, Bruce and potentially JUH, along with English if he spends more time forward and the enigma that’s becoming Lew Young. Has talent but not the tenacity. Would probably do ok if he was 3 inches shorter and more readily able to play as a flanker. That being said, maybe it clicks and a side gets 2-3 good years out of him. That’s sometimes all you need from tall role player types to go from being as aspirant to a genuine contender.

It's interesting because we're a team that moves the ball quickly and delivers well based on the stats, particularly when we're playing well.

Could it be that Dale was just a bit shit this year and this is what hampered him the most in terms of output and opportunity? I know we look for reasons for poor performance of players that are more structural, strategic or tactical, but sometimes players are just a bit shit and I reckon this might be the case with the likes of Dale and Lloyd.

Additionally, Wallis had a consistent year in a role that has usually opened up opportunity for players meaning those two previously mentioned were only going to cement a regular spot if playing really well.

With respect to Schache I'm of the view he just needs to bulk up and play as a second ruck if he wants a career. But I'm possibly on my own with that.