List Management for 2020/21

[azabob]

I’m even more frustrated this morning than I was after our loss against the saints.

I think it comes down to I still see us repeating the same mistakes in the next few years and remaining in no mans land of 8th to 10th.

Player development is off, coaching team is stale, list profile is out of whack.

[Happy Days]

Nank was good as hell last night but that is his best game ever by heaps. I still have a ton of doubts about his ability.

Plus do we really think that we can play all of English, Nank and Goldstein?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I’m even more frustrated this morning than I was after our loss against the saints.

I think it comes down to I still see us repeating the same mistakes in the next few years and remaining in no mans land of 8th to 10th.

Player development is off, coaching team is stale, list profile is out of whack.

Yep. Especially when all rumours surrounding the upcoming trade period have us linked to the likes of Lonie and Hannan.

I dunno. I just feel we have so many areas that need a shake up. And that's not just the playing group. Thank god we have JUH coming otherwise there wouldn't be much to look forward to. I know things can turn around suddenly in this industry but we've had 4 years of subpar performances where the same problems have repeated themselves and we haven't made many changes to address them. Watching last nights game also made me feel worse about our loss to the saints. We would have been blown away by either port or the tiges. Their pace, intensity, pressure and system absolutely blows ours away.

[CarnTheScray]

I’m even more frustrated this morning than I was after our loss against the saints.

I think it comes down to I still see us repeating the same mistakes in the next few years and remaining in no mans land of 8th to 10th.

Player development is off, coaching team is stale, list profile is out of whack.

Welcome to my world. Knew this was going to happen after we missed finals in 2017.

[Grantysghost]

I’m even more frustrated this morning than I was after our loss against the saints.

I think it comes down to I still see us repeating the same mistakes in the next few years and remaining in no mans land of 8th to 10th.

Player development is off, coaching team is stale, list profile is out of whack.

Could that be said about most other teams ? Tigers are an exception, but no one really has had sustained success for a while.
If we were to compare with one of the juggernauts for example, the Eagles. They won in 2018, maybe lucky with the Tigers choking, but they won and they haven't reached any great heights since.
I share the pain but maybe we are the rule and not the exception. I don't believe we are as far away as many believe, but certainly accept that to continue to evolve we need to be constantly innovating.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Could that be said about most other teams ? Tigers are an exception, but no one really has had sustained success for a while.
If we were to compare with one of the juggernauts for example, the Eagles. They won in 2018, maybe lucky with the Tigers choking, but they won and they haven't reached any great heights since.
I share the pain but maybe we are the rule and not the exception. I don't believe we are as far away as many believe, but certainly accept that to continue to evolve we need to be constantly innovating.

Let's say the tigers win the flag this year. If you look at the last 20 flags:

Hawthorn - 4
Tigers - 3
Geelong - 3
Brisbane - 3
West Coast - 2
Sydney - 2
Collingwood - 1
Bulldogs - 1
Port - 1

So 9 teams have shared in the past 20 flags. That will remain the case no matter who wins it this year. Collingwood, bulldogs and port are the only 3 of those 9 with just the 1 flag. 2 of those, Port and Collingwood, contended for years either side of their respective flags. Granted the two flags each of sydney and west coast were different teams, but 4 of the 9 teams capitalised on their successful eras.

So I think we have certainly underachieved and are an exception to the rule moreso because we just haven't contended at all either side of our flag year. Some of that is understandable because our flag was exceptional. We cam from nowhere, had a young list and lost significant personnel very soon after the flag. But the latter is largely our fault and there have been successfull "young" premiers before who have continued their success.

We still have time to continue the success but I think we need significant improvement. It's a shame really. Who in the entire footy world didn't think 2016 was the start of a dynasty? Amazing young talent, great innovative coach and a huge amount of bandwagon support and marketing attention. We dropped the ball big time but it's history now and we need to focus on new momentum.

[Grantysghost]

Let's say the tigers win the flag this year. If you look at the last 20 flags:

Hawthorn - 4
Tigers - 3
Geelong - 3
Brisbane - 3
West Coast - 2
Sydney - 2
Collingwood - 1
Bulldogs - 1
Port - 1

So 9 teams have shared in the past 20 flags. That will remain the case no matter who wins it this year. Collingwood, bulldogs and port are the only 3 of those 9 with just the 1 flag. 2 of those, Port and Collingwood, contended for years either side of their respective flags. Granted the two flags each of sydney and west coast were different teams, but 4 of the 9 teams capitalised on their successful eras.

So I think we have certainly underachieved and are an exception to the rule moreso because we just haven't contended at all either side of our flag year. Some of that is understandable because our flag was exceptional. We cam from nowhere, had a young list and lost significant personnel very soon after the flag. But the latter is largely our fault and there have been successfull "young" premiers before who have continued their success.

We still have time to continue the success but I think we need significant improvement. It's a shame really. Who in the entire footy world didn't think 2016 was the start of a dynasty? Amazing young talent, great innovative coach and a huge amount of bandwagon support and marketing attention. We dropped the ball big time but it's history now and we need to focus on new momentum.

Thanks thats a good analysis. Very interesting. Cats geez theyve been up ever since we beat them in rd 1 2007! But they haven't won one for nearly ten years, Lions longer. Of that list Hawks and Tigers have dominated the 20 teens, amazing with the equalisation we could have 6 of the last 10 won by 2 teams. Actually would be like last 6 from 8.

Only a third of teams have won multiple flags in last 20 seasons ? I think thats kind of the point I was making (I think I had a point !?). Its bloody hard to win it multiple times. If we had a reset, a bevolution, then maybe the last two seasons are the entrée.

I think we have made mistakes btw certainly not wearing the rose coloured glasses. Agree with most points around coaching panel, ruck, gaps in list.

[DOG GOD]

Yep. Especially when all rumours surrounding the upcoming trade period have us linked to the likes of Lonie and Hannan.

I dunno. I just feel we have so many areas that need a shake up. And that's not just the playing group. Thank god we have JUH coming otherwise there wouldn't be much to look forward to. I know things can turn around suddenly in this industry but we've had 4 years of subpar performances where the same problems have repeated themselves and we haven't made many changes to address them. Watching last nights game also made me feel worse about our loss to the saints. We would have been blown away by either port or the tiges. Their pace, intensity, pressure and system absolutely blows ours away.

Agree 100%. We are realistically miles off when it comes to all those things you listed.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Thanks thats a good analysis. Very interesting. Cats geez theyve been up ever since we beat them in rd 1 2007! But they haven't won one for nearly ten years, Lions longer. Of that list Hawks and Tigers have dominated the 20 teens, amazing with the equalisation we could have 6 of the last 10 won by 2 teams. Actually would be like last 6 from 8.

Only a third of teams have won multiple flags in last 20 seasons ? I think thats kind of the point I was making (I think I had a point !?). Its bloody hard to win it multiple times. If we had a reset, a bevolution, then maybe the last two seasons are the entrée.

I think we have made mistakes btw certainly not wearing the rose coloured glasses. Agree with most points around coaching panel, ruck, gaps in list.

Yeah I think it's a bit of both. It's bloody hard to win a flag despite the recent evidence of the Tigers and Hawks. I mean just look at last night the difference between making a grand final and missing out. The Hawks also won close ones over thier journey and we all know here how difficult it is to make a grand final. Luck always plays a part.

But what is disappointing for our team is that we haven't even put ourselves in a position to contend. 4 seaons since our flag for 2 lousy elimination final losses.

[Grantysghost]

But what is disappointing for our team is that we haven't even put ourselves in a position to contend. 4 seaons since our flag for 2 lousy elimination final losses.

Yes agree totally, another finals win or two would've been par.

[Danjul]

Yeah I think it's a bit of both. It's bloody hard to win a flag despite the recent evidence of the Tigers and Hawks. I mean just look at last night the difference between making a grand final and missing out. The Hawks also won close ones over thier journey and we all know here how difficult it is to make a grand final. Luck always plays a part.

But what is disappointing for our team is that we haven't even put ourselves in a position to contend. 4 seaons since our flag for 2 lousy elimination final losses.

I honestly doubt that the Dogs would have won last night, or even got there, if we had Richmond’s playing list. For example,

One of their players kept getting selected during the season when his lowest 10 possession counts were:

4, 4 5 6 6 7 8 9 9 9 - that’s an average of 6 possessions. And his season’s best was 14.

and he didn’t get any hitouts despite being 199 cm tall. Would not have suited our game plan. If you can’t run in the ruck like Dunkley you’re out.

But Richmond plays specialists. And so his 30 goals helped bring them continuing success. At Richmond, do one thing very well and you’re in.

[Danjul]

Let's say the tigers win the flag this year. If you look at the last 20 flags:
......

So I think we have certainly underachieved and are an exception to the rule moreso because we just haven't contended at all either side of our flag year. Some of that is understandable because our flag was exceptional. We cam from nowhere, had a young list and lost significant personnel very soon after the flag. But the latter is largely our fault and there have been successfull "young" premiers before who have continued their success.

......We dropped the ball big time but it's history now and we need to focus on new momentum.

I don’t agree that we came from nowhere. The club had been recruiting very well for a few years and had some exceptional talent maturing. I expected us to go further in 2015, we had spent almost all of the season in the top 8 and were very consistent.

Same for 2016. The only thing holding us back was injuries.

What was exceptional was our failure after the premiership.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

I don’t agree that we came from nowhere. The club had been recruiting very well for a few years and had some exceptional talent maturing. I expected us to go further in 2015, we had spent almost all of the season in the top 8 and were very consistent.

Same for 2016. The only thing holding us back was injuries.

What was exceptional was our failure after the premiership.

You’re right. I suppose I was more referring to where we came from after 2014. But 2016, despite finishing 7th, we were only a couple games of top spot and had plenty of injuries to contend with. People are amazed we did it from 7th. The finals journey from 7th was amazing but we weren’t a true 7th team. That season teams 1-7 were insanely even.

[Grantysghost]

You’re right. I suppose I was more referring to where we came from after 2014. But 2016, despite finishing 7th, we were only a couple games of top spot and had plenty of injuries to contend with. People are amazed we did it from 7th. The finals journey from 7th was amazing but we weren’t a true 7th team. That season teams 1-7 were insanely even.

Yes and we finished the season 19-7 after finals same as the Swans I believe.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Yes and we finished the season 19-7 after finals same as the Swans I believe.

We also beat every team in the comp except Geelong who we only played once down at the cattery. Lost Libba that game after losing Wally and Redpath the week prior. Nearly pinched it in any case.