I hate the St Kilda Matchup - Tell me how we win this game???

[SonofScray]

and yet, we found ourselves in a position to win the game with 2 minutes to go.......for all the bad the Saints were incapable of putting us away. Why?

Talent.

[Danjul]

The issue really is our bottom six who were woeful throughout the year and it showed up in a final. On top of Bruce, Lippinski and Richards were very disappointing, Roarke was ok in patches. Throughout the year we have tried Gowers, Hayes, Lloyd, Dale as well and they are also ordinary.

We really need more contributors and stop relying on the A graders all the time.

Is Dunkley an A Grader? If so, what talents does he display that make him one?

And didn’t we negate all of them by playing him in the ruck in a recent game? He went from a 30 possessions player to 13.

Or in your terms , A grader to bottom six.

Our strategy, for a long time, has restricted the natural talent of some very good players.

That’s why being the first out of the finals is the best we can aspire to.

[bornadog]

Is Dunkley an A Grader? If so, what talents does he display that make him one?

And didn’t we negate all of them by playing him in the ruck in a recent game? He went from a 30 possessions player to 13.

Or in your terms , A grader to bottom six.

Our strategy, for a long time, has restricted the natural talent of some very good players.

That’s why being the first out of the finals is the best we can aspire to.

I don't know what you are talking about, I didn't mention Dunkley

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Just my personal opinion, because we are better than them and we were in better form than them over the past 6 weeks. I was concerned with all the aspects raised by MJP in this thread and also how they schooled us in R2 but I thought we would have brought much more intensity as we have promised to do since the debacle in last year's EF, and I also thought we would be far too strong for them in the midfield with Libba and Hunter in for us and Gresham out for them from R2. Unfortunately, they got the game more on their terms than we did on ours. Credit to their players and especially their coaching group.

I hope we use it as a proper learning experience and make the necessary adjustments to our game plan and squad, because we have too many elite players in or entering their prime to be constantly fallling short of the contenders like we did this year.

How much faith do you have in this teams ability to learn? It was supposed to be after the EF last year. Then after round 1. Then after round 2. Saturday’s game was then meant to be an opportunity to rectify both the EF final last year and round 2 this year. Yet we played almost identically to both those prior games. For all the talk, we sure as hell don’t look like a side who lets their playing so the talking.

[Danjul]

I don't know what you are talking about, I didn't mention Dunkley

No you didn’t. I was simply using your descriptions to point out that we are not always getting the best from the players who have the talent to carry the team higher.

No, worse than that. Decisions are made which prevent them from having maximum input. Dunkley was just one of numerous examples one could use.

I suspect Bruce’s performance is hampered by being told his role is to crash packs . How many times did we see him make a lead?

[Sedat]

How much faith do you have in this teams ability to learn? It was supposed to be after the EF last year. Then after round 1. Then after round 2. Saturday’s game was then meant to be an opportunity to rectify both the EF final last year and round 2 this year. Yet we played almost identically to both those prior games. For all the talk, we sure as hell don’t look like a side who lets their playing so the talking.

You're right but I am the eternal optimist. On exposed form we beat none of the 6 remaining finalists all season, so if we aren't going to win the flag in 2020 I want to make sure there are key learnings, forensic reviews and measurable improvements, both incrementally with the current list and externally via shrewd trades that make an instant and lasting difference.

If 2017 was an unscheduled gap year, 2018 was a reset and 2019/2020 was the start of the climb back up the ladder, we simply have to make the next step to top 4 and stay there. We can and we should be aiming for that in 2021

The concern for me is that Bevo has not had a better H&A finish than 6th in 2015, his first season in charge. That's a very long time ago and we need to aim for bettering that consistently in the next 4-5 years.

[AshMac]

[/B]

How much faith do you have in this teams ability to learn? It was supposed to be after the EF last year. Then after round 1. Then after round 2. Saturday’s game was then meant to be an opportunity to rectify both the EF final last year and round 2 this year. Yet we played almost identically to both those prior games. For all the talk, we sure as hell don’t look like a side who lets their playing so the talking.

Right now have zero faith we'll learn anything. As you say after each "lesson" we talk up how much we've learnt and then produce the same old shit the next time! It's actually pathetic and I won't hear one word about how much effort they put in and they can hold their heads up high (you aren't saying that). As a playing group we should be disgusted by yesterdays performance and never mention it as a close game. If we aren't well then we just don't want to win, and that's even worse than not learning anything.

[FrediKanoute]

Just my personal opinion, because we are better than them and we were in better form than them over the past 6 weeks. I was concerned with all the aspects raised by MJP in this thread and also how they schooled us in R2 but I thought we would have brought much more intensity as we have promised to do since the debacle in last year's EF, and I also thought we would be far too strong for them in the midfield with Libba and Hunter in for us and Gresham out for them from R2. Unfortunately, they got the game more on their terms than we did on ours. Credit to their players and especially their coaching group.

I hope we use it as a proper learning experience and make the necessary adjustments to our game plan and squad, because we have too many elite players in or entering their prime to be constantly fallling short of the contenders like we did this year.

I agree. To me what irks is that when it came down to it we missed critical goals at critical points which cost us. I'm disappointed and I think they need to hurt and learn from it, much like the 2015 team did.

[azabob]

The issue really is our bottom six who were woeful throughout the year and it showed up in a final. On top of Bruce, Lippinski and Richards were very disappointing, Roarke was ok in patches. Throughout the year we have tried Gowers, Hayes, Lloyd, Dale as well and they are also ordinary.

We really need more contributors and stop relying on the A graders all the time.

On the weekend I would also say for 3 quarters our majority of our A graders were nothing more than C Graders.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

You're right but I am the eternal optimist. On exposed form we beat none of the 6 remaining finalists all season, so if we aren't going to win the flag in 2020 I want to make sure there are key learnings, forensic reviews and measurable improvements, both incrementally with the current list and externally via shrewd trades that make an instant and lasting difference.

If 2017 was an unscheduled gap year, 2018 was a reset and 2019/2020 was the start of the climb back up the ladder, we simply have to make the next step to top 4 and stay there. We can and we should be aiming for that in 2021

The concern for me is that Bevo has not had a better H&A finish than 6th in 2015, his first season in charge. That's a very long time ago and we need to aim for bettering that consistently in the next 4-5 years.

Yes I agree. And taking out 2016, we haven’t won a final since 2010.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

On the weekend I would also say for 3 quarters our majority of our A graders were nothing more than C Graders.

Yep. When we lose, it’s typically because our A graders are not pulling their weight. Or at least not enough of them.

[azabob]

Yes I agree. And taking out 2016, we haven’t won a final since 2010.

That is a very damming stat.

[1eyedog]

That is a very damming stat.

So we're 4/3 with a flag? Take that.

[jeemak]

That is a very damming stat.

Yeah, but we're also sitting with a 4-3 ledger and a premiership. Which I reckon a few other teams would take.

[comrade]

So we're 4/3 with a flag? Take that.

If we're going to rely on fairy tales to win a flag, we might well be waiting another 50 odd years.