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  1. #16
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    Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

    Time to start dealing in facts.

    If you cannot get more than a game and a half out of Schache in a season you have failed.

    If you can’t get more than 1 game out of Lewis Young you have failed.

    That the Dogs need 50 inside 50 for 10 goals when Naughton, Wallis, Bruce etc are there is also a bit of a head scratcher.

    Back in 2013? Minson was getting 800 hitouts a season. He didn’t need a third man up. Since then the number has dropped steadily to about half of that, so dramatically that the mids struggle to contain far less talented opposition.

    I am not concerned about bringing in players from other clubs, I suspect that we are only getting 75% from the playing group we have.

    Dropping names like Max King is a distraction. He had 6 or 7 possessions in that loss. How we structured made him influential.

    Talking about vulnerabilities in the side is just goobly gook to distract the audience. We gave Bruce a game as a key forward when he had not kicked a goal in over a month. Our team selection is based upon vulnerabilities.

    look at what worked well in the last half of 2019. Did we see any attempt at recapturing it in 2020. No.

    All the focus on being hard at the ball is simply an admission that when we have the ball we are not skilful enough to keep it.

    Lets develop skills in who we have got, there’s already a lot of talent there.

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  3. #17
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    Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

    Good post Danjul
    We have a talented list and have been failing to a certain extent with developing players over the last 2 or 3 seasons
    The only concern is that if Schache and Young can only get a total of 3 games for the season then we need to make an honest assessment if they fit our plans going forward or if it's time to move them on.
    Given Bevo mentioned our lack of height I hope we back ourselves to actually develop and play both of them
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  4. #18
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    Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    Given Bevo mentioned our lack of height I hope we back ourselves to actually develop and play both of them
    This would essentially require admitting fault, which I can't really see happening.

    I think the chances of both being on the list next year are extremely unlikely, the chances of one are more likely but it would take a complete 180 for one or both to suddenly become a regular player.

    Whilst Schache and Young have to assume a level of responsibility, I would expect they won't be afforded the same lenicy as others (i.e. Bruce, probably Gardner).

    More likely I see a scenario of us trading in a KPD and playing them & playing JUH.

  5. #19
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    Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    Good post Danjul
    We have a talented list and have been failing to a certain extent with developing players over the last 2 or 3 seasons
    The only concern is that if Schache and Young can only get a total of 3 games for the season then we need to make an honest assessment if they fit our plans going forward or if it's time to move them on.
    Given Bevo mentioned our lack of height I hope we back ourselves to actually develop and play both of them
    I think we need to change the plans. They have not worked in years.

    As evidence:

    Carlton destroyed the Dogs early in 2019. Yet they hadn’t won a game for a long time. They did it again in 2020 when the Dogs supposedly had a stronger team.

    St Kilda has finished the season below the Dogs for 6? Years. Last year they humiliated the Dogs and did it again this year. Then in the final they were more than 4 goals ahead at 3/4 time.

    If teams residing lower on the ladder can consistently worry a talented group there is a fault in the game plan.

    Bringing in players from from other teams hasn’t worked because they cannot adjust to our game plan. In fact we have exported more successful players than are being proposed. We want a hard working small forward- get Dahl back. Want a full back - get Roughy back.

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  7. #20
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    Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Danjul View Post
    I think we need to change the plans. They have not worked in years.

    As evidence:

    Carlton destroyed the Dogs early in 2019. Yet they hadn’t won a game for a long time. They did it again in 2020 when the Dogs supposedly had a stronger team.

    St Kilda has finished the season below the Dogs for 6? Years. Last year they humiliated the Dogs and did it again this year. Then in the final they were more than 4 goals ahead at 3/4 time.

    If teams residing lower on the ladder can consistently worry a talented group there is a fault in the game plan.

    Bringing in players from from other teams hasn’t worked because they cannot adjust to our game plan. In fact we have exported more successful players than are being proposed. We want a hard working small forward- get Dahl back. Want a full back - get Roughy back.
    I agree with what you're saying but I would never have Dal back. He can barely kick from 30m out and for his price is not worth it. Roughy, well yeah we mucked that up.

    I've mentioned this before but what irritates me in terms of recruiting is we are sitting here lamenting our lack of small forward, full back and ruck. Last year the team that just knocked us out of the finals went and got Butler, Howard and Ryder all fairly cheaply. We got the wrong type of small forward in Llyod, no ruck and the wrong type of backmen in Keath. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy we got Keath. But his strengths were always his intercepting ability. Not his 1v1 work.

    Then you think Bevo hates playeres who can't move. So bye-bye Roughead. But then we recruited Trengove. And we don't play him. We recruit Bruce when we've got Schache and Naughton, knowing JUH is coming. This was with an eye to have a 3 pronged forward lineup but we never once saw it. And who is surprised? Bevo hates tall lineups. But then why recruit Bruce and extend Schache? We recruit a small marking forward in Lloyd which we have loads of, instead of a natural pacey crumber which we have none of. Then we've got loads of flankers. Quite frankly I don't see what we're trying to do as decisions made during trade period are not implemented the following season.

    It might be a slow process to fill all our holes. But the saints filled 3 of them in 1 trade period. I'm not sure why we are struggling and if it's overrating the abilities of our list or thinking our gameplan doesn't require certain positions or not identifying the talent out there? Who knows but we've got work to do.

  8. #21
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    Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogsthru&thru View Post

    It might be a slow process to fill all our holes. But the saints filled 3 of them in 1 trade period. I'm not sure why we are struggling and if it's overrating the abilities of our list or thinking our gameplan doesn't require certain positions or not identifying the talent out there? Who knows but we've got work to do.
    I sent a mate a message that if we had Saints off season last year of Howard, Ryder and Butler we'd have probably made top 4 and be set for next year and beyond. Ryder would have been a great mentor for both English AND JUH.

    They completely nailed it last year. Made our trading over the past 4 years look like child's play.
    Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

  9. #22
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    Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by comrade View Post
    I sent a mate a message that if we had Saints off season last year of Howard, Ryder and Butler we'd have probably made top 4 and be set for next year and beyond. Ryder would have been a great mentor for both English AND JUH.

    They completely nailed it last year. Made our trading over the past 4 years look like child's play.
    We'd probably have played Howard as a forward/ruck, Butler as a HBF and Ryder would have spent his days playing scratch matches and we'd have received no updates on him.

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  11. #23
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    Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

    When I get a chance, I'd like to see our goalkicking lists, by season contrasted against some year by year averages for inside 50 and differentials.

  12. #24
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    Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogsthru&thru View Post
    I agree with what you're saying but I would never have Dal back. He can barely kick from 30m out and for his price is not worth it. Roughy, well yeah we mucked that up.

    I've mentioned this before but what irritates me in terms of recruiting is we are sitting here lamenting our lack of small forward, full back and ruck. Last year the team that just knocked us out of the finals went and got Butler, Howard and Ryder all fairly cheaply. We got the wrong type of small forward in Llyod, no ruck and the wrong type of backmen in Keath. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy we got Keath. But his strengths were always his intercepting ability. Not his 1v1 work.

    Then you think Bevo hates playeres who can't move. So bye-bye Roughead. But then we recruited Trengove. And we don't play him. We recruit Bruce when we've got Schache and Naughton, knowing JUH is coming. This was with an eye to have a 3 pronged forward lineup but we never once saw it. And who is surprised? Bevo hates tall lineups. But then why recruit Bruce and extend Schache? We recruit a small marking forward in Lloyd which we have loads of, instead of a natural pacey crumber which we have none of. Then we've got loads of flankers. Quite frankly I don't see what we're trying to do as decisions made during trade period are not implemented the following season.

    It might be a slow process to fill all our holes. But the saints filled 3 of them in 1 trade period. I'm not sure why we are struggling and if it's overrating the abilities of our list or thinking our gameplan doesn't require certain positions or not identifying the talent out there? Who knows but we've got work to do.
    Is it partly beggars can't be choosers in terms of trades for us? For some reason I feel we still appear an unattractive proposition to players from other teams.
    Saints clearly sold their vision really well to those guys.

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  14. #25
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    Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grantysghost View Post
    Is it partly beggars can't be choosers in terms of trades for us? For some reason I feel we still appear an unattractive proposition to players from other teams.
    Saints clearly sold their vision really well to those guys.
    Perhaps. But you'd think only the big names. Butler, Howard and Ryder were hardly sought after. I think we were never in their ears.

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  16. #26
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    Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    Good post Danjul
    We have a talented list and have been failing to a certain extent with developing players over the last 2 or 3 seasons
    The only concern is that if Schache and Young can only get a total of 3 games for the season then we need to make an honest assessment if they fit our plans going forward or if it's time to move them on.
    Given Bevo mentioned our lack of height I hope we back ourselves to actually develop and play both of them
    With no VFL this year it was was hard to consider any players let alone develop them. Schache missed half the season with injuries.
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  18. #27
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    Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by comrade View Post
    I sent a mate a message that if we had Saints off season last year of Howard, Ryder and Butler we'd have probably made top 4 and be set for next year and beyond. Ryder would have been a great mentor for both English AND JUH.

    They completely nailed it last year. Made our trading over the past 4 years look like child's play.
    Have you seen the trade they did for Dougal and Ryder? 12 and 18 for Ryder, Howard and 10. That's mental value in hindsight so well done to them.

    I believe at the time I said I was confused by and didn't realy rate the moves individually, but really hoped they worked because it might change the generally conservative list management approach adopted by all clubs. Well here we are, having seen it undisputedly work (regardless of how far they go in the finals, going from very realy bad to pretty good has to be tick), and sort of change the dynamic on the ruck position. We should look at it and learn, as should most of the other clubs.
    - I'm a visionary - Only here to confirm my biases -

  19. #28
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    Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Days View Post
    Have you seen the trade they did for Dougal and Ryder? 12 and 18 for Ryder, Howard and 10. That's mental value in hindsight so well done to them.

    I believe at the time I said I was confused by and didn't realy rate the moves individually, but really hoped they worked because it might change the generally conservative list management approach adopted by all clubs. Well here we are, having seen it undisputedly work (regardless of how far they go in the finals, going from very realy bad to pretty good has to be tick), and sort of change the dynamic on the ruck position. We should look at it and learn, as should most of the other clubs.
    Yep. I'll admit I didn't rate the moves either. So it's a bit silly of me to pot our list managers. But the moves have certainly changed the narrative of recruiting. It has in my eyes and certainly with the saints' dramatic improvement it will change how list managers approach recruiting. And look it is still early but Howard and Butler had proven abilities and Ryder is known to only have a few years left, but valuable ones at that. Would these moves have had the same impact if Richardson was still in charge?

  20. #29
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    Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    With no VFL this year it was was hard to consider any players let alone develop them. Schache missed half the season with injuries.
    The development issue though isn't just limited to this season and we can always find convenient excuses. Next year we might use the excuse that it's because of the lack of development coaches.

    The fact is Lewis Young, as an example, has gone backwards with us since his promising debut season and with just one senior game early in the season this year it's actually not because of a lack of VFL games.

    I'll check further but I don't think Schache missed 9 games this year through injury. He was though made to earn his spot and performed strongly in his first game and then was selected in a rain sodden game the following week that he was never suited for before getting dropped for the balance of the season. I'll acknowledge injuries player its role we stuck with Bruce who was producing every little and ignored Young and Schache

    Outside of Naughton, who has been an absolute gem, we haven't been convincing in developing our taller KPP for a while now
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  21. #30
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    Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    Outside of Naughton, who has been an absolute gem, we haven't been convincing in developing our taller KPP for a while now
    English.

    Who else have we drafted other than Lewis Young?
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