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  1. #1
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    Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    I know that everyone is excited about the additions to our list but I continue to battle with it.

    1/. Treloar: We have recruited an excellent player...but one who simply does not fill a need. To me, he is more of what we already have...for FIVE YEARS. I worry about the impact on Bailey Smith, on Rhylee West...on our other young mids who really should be the ones putting us over the top. We already have a group that doesn't defend well in transition - I think Treloar is better than his harshest critics suggest (I mean, he knows WHO his opponent is even if he doesn't know exactly WHERE he is) but anyone who has watched our side in the past two seasons will know that we can be heavily scored against in transition and how exactly does Treloar help that? We are weak in outside mids...he doesn't play that role (and it is a genuine position with specific skills and responsibilities that take time to learn and understand...We are weak with regards hard-running, competitive hhf's and he doesn't really do that either...

    Yes - I get it that he will be 'a rotator' but for us to get value from him he really needs to be spending the vast majority of his time inside the centre square - ditto Bont, Macrae, Liber, Dunks, Smith...only 3 at a time so how does this work??? Rotations are really dependent on the players and our mids are not exactly known (in recent seasons) for their selfless approach to the game...I wonder (and the recent "I wanna go to Essendon" saga with Dunks supports this) whether a couple of them would rather have 40 touches and lose than 18 touches and win. I worry Treloar also has this tendency and I worry his arrival at the club does nothing to address our areas of need.

    2/. Martin: Where does he play? Ruck? If so, where does English play? I simply don't get it because to me this is simple maths - we cannot have two players in the side to fill ONE position. If we needed a bigger, stronger body, well, JT could have filled the bill of support player in 2020 (or 2019 for that matter)...but was never picked. You would have though St Kilda would have been the PERFECT opponent for him - two ruckman and they rotated in the Saints f50...and JT is an experienced AFL defender...but STILL we didn't pick him...why will we pick Martin??? I have heard the argument that we got him mostly to work with English at training and lift his level through consistent competition...I don't see it. There isn't much competitive work at training in any case, and with a drastically shortened pre-season...when will this happen? Or are we planning on playing English forward or back ahead of Bruce (goodness knows what his salary is) and Schache...and then using HIM as the support ruckman? Well...I don't know much but I am pretty confident you don't get better at playing in the ruck by standing inside forward 50m and waiting for the ball to be kicked in...

    I know, I know. We WON the trade period and Sam Power is a genius and the world is a much better place, but I still maintain the players we need in our side right now are:

    1/. Clay Smith - Aggressive, team first forward.
    2/. Liam Picken - Aggressive, team first forward who could play mid if required.
    3/. Matt Boyd - Aggressive, team first defender who understands how to play mid and can fill in as necessary.
    4/. Dale Morris - Aggressive, team first defender able to play on smalls and talls.

    If that is simplistic, well, it is intended to be so - but we need GRUNT. I guess in many ways Martin is 'all grunt'...but that means English goes forward and well, all grunt does not really spring to mind when I think of English as a forward. If you want to tell me Duryea can fill the Boyd role I am listening...but the others???

    Treloar is an excellent player...Martin has been an excellent player. I just don't know if they are what we need right now in order to step forward as a footy side. I really, really wish I could figure this out.
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  3. #2
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Your point about some of our mids preferring 40 possessions and losing instead of 18 and winning reminds me very much of Cotchin. He was a perennial 35-40 possession 'do everything' mid for the first half of the decade up to 2016, and more often than not in losing causes. He reinvented his game significantly at the end of 2016, and while he was bloody lucky to play in the 2017 premiership (should have been suspended) he is the ultimate example for our inside mids to follow of a quality senior player sacrificing their game for the betterment of the team.

    I also agree wholeheartedly about the gnawing chasm of heart and soul types who were aggressive, team first players. We sinply haven't replaced the 4 of them we lost. Duryea is definitely one (I was gobsmacked by the ease with which some thought he could be delisted) and Libba is clearly one of theses types albeit in our midfield rotations. We definitely need more uncompromising team-first pricks up forward in the Picken and Clay Smith vein - you don't know what you've until it is gone.

    I'm worried that Stefan Martin is cooked, but if 2020 is an aberration and he can recapture his excellent form prior to that, I have no problem with him being our no. 1 ruck and English playing primarily forward and only pinch-hitting in ruck. English is not, and I personally have doubts whether he ever will be, a no. 1 ruck. If English plays forward, it makes Naughts so much more dangerous. It also leaves Bruce without a position as key forward, so he can either play at Footscray or train all summer with the defensive crew - Liam Jones turned his career around so perhaps Bruce can as well. I would much rather lose big on Bruce in the short term as a (thus far) dud investment and invest heavily in Naughts and English as a devastating key forward duo who compliment each other with different skill sets.
    Last edited by Sedat; 23-11-2020 at 12:21 AM.
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  5. #3
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Martin as #1 ruck and English as 7th defender?

    Bailey Smith & Rhylee West might become our hard nosed forwards
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    I'd be utterly shocked if we weren't trying to improve our list in other ways beyond securing Martin and Treloar (and agree on the needs identified by the OP), though without being privy to the machinations of trade week, who we targeted and at what price one can only speculate.

    Over the years though I've firmed in the belief that if you can't completely satisfy specific needs then your next best option is to improve upon what you've got and I think we've done that.

    English will improve as a first ruck over time, even when playing second ruck to Martin. Our midfield is more congested on paper but players get injured and can adapt to new circumstances or positional requirements (see Sedat's post).

    I kind of get the concern but I guess we'll just have to figure out how best manage things. It's not like getting these guys in is going to cause a massive shuffling of players that results in clear best 22 positional players missing out on games whilst we try and shoehorn them in.
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    The addition of Treloar just proves that you can add very good players to the list but perhaps you aren't necessarily improving the list
    We've effectively added a significant amount of depth to a position we were already deep in and it doesn't address the lack of a defensive minded midfielder. Perhaps that is Dunkley's role now
    The challenge for the club is to make all these pieces fit into a productive midfield

    To me Martin is far easier to explain, he allows for us to select English on form rather than being an automatic selection. We will play both of them on occasions but I don't expect that to be a lot
    English and Sweet will get plenty of competition from Martin at training and will be able to learn from him. A decent investment in the development of both ruckman

    Last year we talked up how we would play 3 tall forwards and never went close to doing that. Hannan gives the MC the opportunity to play 2 tall forwards with him being the pseudo 3rd tall

    All 3 players were not ideal fits for us so it's going to be interesting to see how we manage this. If we get it right it could pay a huge dividend
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  9. #6
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Some interesting points raised in the OP and worth discussing.

    Treloar

    Can anyone ever remember in the history of the club where we have recruited an A grade established player from another AFL club and in their prime? I am not counting the VFL days when for example we went to WA and picked up 10 players including Beasley, Purser and these guys, but rather an AFL player from the current playing list. Most of the players we have recruited were in their last years of playing, well past their best, eg Aker, Hall, etc where we only got a couple of seasons out of them.

    To pickup a Treloar is a real coup and I will take it any time. He may not be what we 100% needed but he will lift the midfield group. Imagine the Bont and Treloar in the middle together, or Macrae and Treloar, while the Bont takes a rest. I don't care that we have other mids, let them all compete for a spot and the best man wins. Yeah, sounds like depth, but there have been times when our mids lost the game for us because they couldn't get their hands on the ball eg GWS final, and Pies first round this year - the two worse games we have played in the last two seasons.

    Martin

    My issue with Martin is the unknown, ie is he cooked, and that is only based on his 2020 season. The other issue is that he can only play one role, ie ruck and bench.So did we make a mistake in recruiting Martin? The answer is probably no, but he is also not the ideal player we would have chosen if we had a choice. Bevo would have preferred to have an athletic ruckman that can change with English and also be useful around the ground as an extra mid. In the end I don't believe we had much choice here as there aren't too many ready made rucks available.

    What was the alternative? We could have pulled the trigger and played English and Sweet, and recruited a developing ruckman, or we could have pushed someone like Schache to be a second ruck (he played Ruck/forward as a junior and has played the role for us in previous seasons). However these alternatives would not really solve our ruck situation as we most likely would have still lost the ruck duals as English and Sweet are still developing.

    At least Martin can be a mentor, doesn't have to play every game, and can be kept fresh throughout the season, depending on the opposition. We have to learn from his experience.

    In the end, we had very little alternative in the ruck, so Martin is a yes. As for Treloar, well he is icing on the cake, but hey, why would you knock it back.
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  10. #7
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Martin is a one year stop-gap / playing coach that will afford Tim English two full pre-seasons before he takes the no 1 ruck mantle again. In terms of timing I can understand it.

    I also think we had one genuine burst mid last year (Smith) and now we have two. I was concerned about bringing in a $900k mid for five years but someone who gives us a POD to other mids (bar Smith) who is genuine quality, for a future second, even at $600k pa is hard to argue with.
    I actually like the Hannan acquisition as well. I don't think we're going anywhere with players who disappear when the pressure is on (Dale, Schache). Hannan is at the very least a small upgrade on these guys when we don't have the ball.

    As for the tough mid-sized defender... Cordy. He's not Moz, but who is? Dane Rampe yes, but who else? The brief moments when Dylan Grimes is vertical?
    Clay Smith & Liam Picken are the toughest to replace - Wally does his best but lacks Smith's pace at the ball carrier.

    Guys like Picken - we have to rookie one. They don't come from the main draft.

    I have questions about whether Cordy & Wood play in the same team, even with the height difference they seem to take the same defender. Wood obviously the far better interceptor but Cordy genuinely enjoys hurting people.
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    I think differently on Martin. He's gonna play every week and Tim is gonna play as a key forward with a license to roam. The Saints and Port have laid a great blueprint for this with Marshall and Ladhams, and English has it in him to be better than both of them the less emphasis is placed on him to do actual ruckwork. I'm in the Martin is washed camp but I just can't see the sense in recruiting a guy to not play, particularly in a clear position of need. English is absolutley not a liability around the ground, is pretty quick and has excellent skills below his knees - ergo, none of the stuff that would make this not work.

    Re Treloar, Mike is obviously right in that he's an outstanding player who's maybe the best first receiver in the game but has only demonstrated a capacity to play as a centre square player. But - we don't need one of those, and surely this was a consideration before we recruited him. We do need outside players, and while I appreciate that it's a different position that takes time to learn (Macrae in Hunter's absence being a perfect example of that), how long is long enough? From day one of pre-season to round one? He hasn't shown he can but he hasn't shown he can't either.
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Were we that great in centre square clearances last year? it might have been because of the ruck situation but I thought we were often thrashed in clearances (cue someone to actually find the data, but even so, clearances where we got really clean possession and then quality entry into fwd line seemed lacking).

    But I really think our weak point is exactly what mjp has said. Those four with a brutal mindset unafraid to use their bodies as battering rams and had an insane appetite for the ball have not even come close to being replaced. They are what is needed to win finals, and I'm not sure who we have that can even grow into such a role.
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Days View Post
    I think differently on Martin. He's gonna play every week and Tim is gonna play as a key forward with a license to roam. The Saints and Port have laid a great blueprint for this with Marshall and Ladhams, and English has it in him to be better than both of them the less emphasis is placed on him to do actual ruckwork. I'm in the Martin is washed camp but I just can't see the sense in recruiting a guy to not play, particularly in a clear position of need. English is absolutley not a liability around the ground, is pretty quick and has excellent skills below his knees - ergo, none of the stuff that would make this not work.
    This has been my thoughts on the matter as well.

    English is great at a lot of things, ruckwork not being one of them. I definitely think this is worth a go, and Martin being 34 gives us half a season to try it properly without having committed to it long term should it not work. English has the potential to be the perfect second ruck, I do have queries on his aggression as a forward still but he does seem to find the ball naturally in general play (isn't reliant on getting his touches at the coalface like say Ben Hudson) and I like the idea of him providing us with an aerial option where we need it.

    On Treloar I was pretty strong on not wanting him pre trade and while the trade itself is a fantastic piece of work i am sceptical if he does improve the side. I think he beefs up the one part of our side that doesn't need more beef, and is yet another pure mid that means the guys that are ok elsewhere (Bont, Dunkley and Smith) will spend even more time in their secondary not as good position. I also suspect that we had about a $600K size hole in our salary cap going forward which we have opted to fill with Treloar, and the opportunity cost of that is that we now cannot use that on a position we actually need like a key defender or small forward unless we lose someone (like say Dunkley).

    I've also had reservations that our midfield performance has not been greater than the sum of all parts for a while now, I am not sure Treloar helps that although as a burst mid he atleast offers us something slightly different.

    On the plus side one issue that continually costs us games is that when Bont goes forward for a quarter we capitulate. Maybe Treloar helps carry our midfield in his absence in which case he would make a meaningful difference.
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by The bulldog tragician View Post
    Were we that great in centre square clearances last year? it might have been because of the ruck situation but I thought we were often thrashed in clearances (cue someone to actually find the data, but even so, clearances where we got really clean possession and then quality entry into fwd line seemed lacking).

    But I really think our weak point is exactly what mjp has said. Those four with a brutal mindset unafraid to use their bodies as battering rams and had an insane appetite for the ball have not even come close to being replaced. They are what is needed to win finals, and I'm not sure who we have that can even grow into such a role.
    We were around middle of the road for both centre clearances and stoppage clearances.

    Richmond are well known to be near last in the league for clearance numbers. Goes to show clearances aren't everything.

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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by boydogs View Post
    Martin as #1 ruck and English as 7th defender?

    Bailey Smith & Rhylee West might become our hard nosed forwards
    Yes I can see Martin playing the main ruck role and English showing his best work as a extra man in defence as well as up forward. I can quite easily imagine Martin and English on the field together. Who knows Tim might be part of the mid field rotations if a few players tire. He can be elite around the ground.

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  19. #13
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    I just can't see how this would be the 'wrong' thing.

    We gave up very little to get these players in - and have added significantly to the overall talent of the list.

    Martin was available and cheap to pick up - and if we went through next year with English experiencing the same issues against the really mature, top line ruckman - we'd all be screaming about why we didn't take the opportunity to bring in an experienced ruck to bridge this period where English is still developing physically.

    As for Treloar, in my view you can never bat too deep in the midfield, and he is a proven top level performer. Its up to the mids and their coaches to ensure that we have the right mix of attack and defence - but with the level of talent in our midfield, the opposition will have a lot to think about.

    I also don't think we can assume Tom Libba is going to be able to get through next year in the same way he did this season. Tom benefitted from the delayed restart to the season and to shorter quarters and a shorter season. I don't think we can bank on Libba playing 22 games - I really think that 15-16 is realistic for him. Treloar will be inside mid - and may play some high half forward. But most of our mids are versatile anyway. Macrae is proven as a wingman as well as inside mid. Bont and Dunks obviously do both. Bailey Smith is probably the one who might need to be tooled up a bit to spend time out of the inside mid.

    I also think the club benefits from having a few older heads. We saw many examples during the year where we had down periods in games and lacked some experience and composure in getting it back under control.

    In a period where the soft cap has been reduced significantly, having Martin impart his experience will be valuable. Treloar joins what is still a pretty young side and youngish midfield - is incredibly consistent, and is still at the top of his game.

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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    Can anyone ever remember in the history of the club where we have recruited an A grade established player from another AFL club and in their prime?
    It was a bit before my time, but Adrian Gallagher probably fits this bill. We obtained him from Carlton in 1973 as a 26 year old and he was good enough to be later named in their team of the century.

    https://afltables.com/afl/stats/play...Gallagher.html

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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe Man View Post
    We were around middle of the road for both centre clearances and stoppage clearances.

    Richmond are well known to be near last in the league for clearance numbers. Goes to show clearances aren't everything.
    We were absolutely pillaged at throw-in clearances last year, but surprisingly ok at centre clearances.

    It will be interesting to see if we ask Martin to play the old Scott Wynd type role that English played well in 2020 or more of a traditional ruck role. Would be a real blast from the past if English was our Galaxy Coleman who took F50 ruck contests and Martin remained a tall sweeper.
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