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  1. #31
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Dare I say Robbert Klomp? A dual premiership player who was 28 when he came over from Carlton. He did seem to promptly lose any talent he had the moment he walked through the door though.

    Greg Towns. Only 26 when he transferred from Carlton and played a few good games for us.

    Bruce Duperouzel. He was done at St Kilda but played some great footy for us coming off the bench when we needed an impact.

    Mark Kellett played good footy for us after coming from St Kilda.
    Have you been reading those Roddy Doyle books again, Dougal!?


    I have, yeah Ted, you big gobshite

  2. #32
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post

    1/. Clay Smith - Aggressive, team first forward.
    2/. Liam Picken - Aggressive, team first forward who could play mid if required.
    3/. Matt Boyd - Aggressive, team first defender who understands how to play mid and can fill in as necessary.
    4/. Dale Morris - Aggressive, team first defender able to play on smalls and talls.
    Not saying I disagree with you MJP, but if the above four are the type we needed, who would you have targeted from opposition clubs? The thing about all of these guys, none of them would probably have been given a chance at other clubs. Certainly none would have endured as long as they did. They were Bulldogs players. Uniquely Bulldog players. To me these are guys you grow.

    I'd argue that West is potentially a Clay Smith with his hardness at the ball and around the clinches; I'd suggest that Wallis/McLean could fill the Picken role (McLean more so if he comes back from his knee). You have said that Doc is the Matt Boyd clone, but possible Crozier as well. I just don't think you can go out and recruit guys like this.

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  4. #33
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by FrediKanoute View Post
    Not saying I disagree with you MJP, but if the above four are the type we needed, who would you have targeted from opposition clubs? The thing about all of these guys, none of them would probably have been given a chance at other clubs. Certainly none would have endured as long as they did. They were Bulldogs players. Uniquely Bulldog players. To me these are guys you grow.

    I'd argue that West is potentially a Clay Smith with his hardness at the ball and around the clinches; I'd suggest that Wallis/McLean could fill the Picken role (McLean more so if he comes back from his knee). You have said that Doc is the Matt Boyd clone, but possible Crozier as well. I just don't think you can go out and recruit guys like this.
    Three of those guys a rookies, and the one who isn't did 3 ACLs.
    I don't think guys like that are generally found int he draft. The only rookie that wasn't passed over multiple times (Boyd) was taken from Frankston VFL seconds.

    It's why we need to take a couple of rookies every year. You just don't find those obsessed scrappers in the main draft as much as you do in the rookie draft. The only one I can think of taken in the main draft was a late 50s pick (Cross).
    Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers

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  6. #34
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mofra View Post
    Three of those guys a rookies, and the one who isn't did 3 ACLs.
    I don't think guys like that are generally found int he draft. The only rookie that wasn't passed over multiple times (Boyd) was taken from Frankston VFL seconds.

    It's why we need to take a couple of rookies every year. You just don't find those obsessed scrappers in the main draft as much as you do in the rookie draft. The only one I can think of taken in the main draft was a late 50s pick (Cross).
    Ollie Wines and Clay Smith we’re both taken high in the draft. Macrae gives his all too.

    I do see what you’re saying though. Generally the guys with a never say die attitude are that way because they have less natural skills and need other qualities to make it.

  7. #35
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    I remember Ken Greenwood, came over from Carlton, and played some great games for us.

    Ken Greenwood (born 15 December 1941) is a former Australian rules footballer who played for Carlton and Footscray in the Victorian Football League (VFL).

    A ruckman, Greenwood was recruited from South Bendigo and was an understudy to John Nicholls during his time at Carlton. In just his eighth league game, Greenwood appeared in the 1962 VFL Grand Final, which Carlton lost. He never established a regular place in the team until 1964 but even then received limited game time due to Nicholls.

    Greenwood, after trying to get a clearance to Melbourne, was given to Footscray in order to keep Ian Robertson, who was part of Footscray's recruitment zone, at Carlton. In 1967, his first season, Greenwood was runner up in the 'Best and Fairest' to John Jillard by one vote. His VFL career ended in 1972 when he badly injured his knee and he spent the 1973 season as captain-coach of Preston.
    The truth will set you free,
    but first it will piss you off. ... Gloria Steinem.

  8. #36
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogsthru&thru View Post
    Ollie Wines and Clay Smith we’re both taken high in the draft. Macrae gives his all too.

    I do see what you’re saying though. Generally the guys with a never say die attitude are that way because they have less natural skills and need other qualities to make it.
    Personally I certainly don't see Wines and Macrae as "scrappers" - both were touted as high picks during their draft year and don't have the same obvious flaws that some of more speculative kids have, especially those who start as taggers/inside mids.

    Clay Smith was a very unique one. I don't think I've ever seen a kid with his 'crazy eyes'. There won't be another
    Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers

  9. #37
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mofra View Post
    Personally I certainly don't see Wines and Macrae as "scrappers" - both were touted as high picks during their draft year and don't have the same obvious flaws that some of more speculative kids have, especially those who start as taggers/inside mids.

    Clay Smith was a very unique one. I don't think I've ever seen a kid with his 'crazy eyes'. There won't be another
    Such as shame he had rotten luck with his knees. He would have been an absolute weapon. Bull at a gate and knew where the goals were.

  10. #38
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogsthru&thru View Post
    Such as shame he had rotten luck with his knees. He would have been an absolute weapon. Bull at a gate and knew where the goals were.
    2016 was blessed in a lot of ways. Clay having a clear run at it for a brief time was one of those blessings.
    Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

  11. #39
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogsthru&thru View Post
    Such as shame he had rotten luck with his knees. He would have been an absolute weapon. Bull at a gate and knew where the goals were.
    And he was scary as hell.

    I loved Clay Smith.
    "It's over. It's all over."

  12. #40
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by FrediKanoute View Post
    Not saying I disagree with you MJP, but if the above four are the type we needed, who would you have targeted from opposition clubs?
    I think that is kind of my point (and I know I have derailed my own thread talking about recruits from other clubs from seasons past) but the guys we are 'looking for' - or to my mind *SHOULD* be looking for aren't the guys we have targeted.

    I guess a positive person would say the guys we are looking for are:

    West (Smith)
    Garcia (Picken) - even Wally I guess.
    Duryea (Boyd)
    Gardner (Morris)

    But I'm not so sure any of the guys I have nominated fit the bill...or if we have anyone else on the current list who does. The thing I keep bouncing back to is 'Team First' - these guys simply don't get recruited anymore...the 'BEST' players at their level get recruited. The player we all loved playing with from our own days - the guy who could and would play multiple spots, was uncompromising in his attack on the ball AND the body...that's a player we no longer see at AFL level.

    I think Richmond have found a way to manipulate things and have built a quality team based around essentially 'role players'. Their mid-sized runners who play in pockets/flanks/wings simply run and work so hard...but they know a single drop off can and will cost them at selection and they might not get back. Baker is a good example - undrafted in his 18th year, transferred from WP to Subi and played primarily half forward...now is a half-back who is constantly INVOLVED in the game...he is always doing 'something'. My concern with our role players isn't their ability at their best - it is the complete lack of impact most weeks. I like Richards as a player - lots of great AFL attributes - but I can't imagine Picken going through a game and having 5x possessions and donuts on the rest of the stat sheet (maybe he did but I think you all know what I mean).

    Where are these guys on our list? Who do you trust to throw in anywhere from deep back to deep forward to midfield tagger and just make a nuisance of themselves, playing around the ball, first to the footy, getting low in the contest and initiating contact, pulling their team-mates up from the bottom of the pack, pushing 80m to cover an opponent because there is no-one else to do it...Who do you trust?

    We are too pretty and too nice - too much cream and not enough cake. I think adding Treloar is adding cream and I don't get how adding another possession winning mid to a group of possession winning mids helps in any way. Of course I hope it does (like crazy) but I look at the team on paper (I know, games are played on grass) and it feels unbalanced and unwieldy and difficult to manage on gameday. I don't like the idea of all these inside mids playing inside forward 50m...it makes us worse at 2x positions when guys like Macrae are out of the midfield (we aren't as good in the mids - he's a mid, and we aren't as good in the forwards - he's a mid).
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

  13. #41
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    But I'm not so sure any of the guys I have nominated fit the bill...or if we have anyone else on the current list who does. The thing I keep bouncing back to is 'Team First' - these guys simply don't get recruited anymore...the 'BEST' players at their level get recruited. The player we all loved playing with from our own days - the guy who could and would play multiple spots, was uncompromising in his attack on the ball AND the body...that's a player we no longer see at AFL level.
    I think to find these guys is difficult and also a risk for recruiters, as they don't know how they will turn out. Typically they are less skillful but have the determination and guts to play their role. Much easier to pick the skilful players and those starring in the under 18 or lower leagues.

    In the past few seasons, what we should have been doing is turning over the rookie list until we found these guys. We have hung to some rookies too long.
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  14. #42
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    I think that is kind of my point (and I know I have derailed my own thread talking about recruits from other clubs from seasons past) but the guys we are 'looking for' - or to my mind *SHOULD* be looking for aren't the guys we have targeted.

    I guess a positive person would say the guys we are looking for are:

    West (Smith)
    Garcia (Picken) - even Wally I guess.
    Duryea (Boyd)
    Gardner (Morris)

    But I'm not so sure any of the guys I have nominated fit the bill...or if we have anyone else on the current list who does. The thing I keep bouncing back to is 'Team First' - these guys simply don't get recruited anymore...the 'BEST' players at their level get recruited. The player we all loved playing with from our own days - the guy who could and would play multiple spots, was uncompromising in his attack on the ball AND the body...that's a player we no longer see at AFL level.

    I think Richmond have found a way to manipulate things and have built a quality team based around essentially 'role players'. Their mid-sized runners who play in pockets/flanks/wings simply run and work so hard...but they know a single drop off can and will cost them at selection and they might not get back. Baker is a good example - undrafted in his 18th year, transferred from WP to Subi and played primarily half forward...now is a half-back who is constantly INVOLVED in the game...he is always doing 'something'. My concern with our role players isn't their ability at their best - it is the complete lack of impact most weeks. I like Richards as a player - lots of great AFL attributes - but I can't imagine Picken going through a game and having 5x possessions and donuts on the rest of the stat sheet (maybe he did but I think you all know what I mean).

    Where are these guys on our list? Who do you trust to throw in anywhere from deep back to deep forward to midfield tagger and just make a nuisance of themselves, playing around the ball, first to the footy, getting low in the contest and initiating contact, pulling their team-mates up from the bottom of the pack, pushing 80m to cover an opponent because there is no-one else to do it...Who do you trust?

    We are too pretty and too nice - too much cream and not enough cake. I think adding Treloar is adding cream and I don't get how adding another possession winning mid to a group of possession winning mids helps in any way. Of course I hope it does (like crazy) but I look at the team on paper (I know, games are played on grass) and it feels unbalanced and unwieldy and difficult to manage on gameday. I don't like the idea of all these inside mids playing inside forward 50m...it makes us worse at 2x positions when guys like Macrae are out of the midfield (we aren't as good in the mids - he's a mid, and we aren't as good in the forwards - he's a mid).
    While I think that you can't have enough good footballers on your list (and Trealor is a very good footballer) you are right. We need a couple of guys who will always do whatever it takes to get the team over the line. The sort of guys who always struggled to get onto lists/into the team and didn't just cruise by on natural ability.

    But they seem to be hard to find all of a sudden. Recruiters seem to take safe options these days. They no longer seem to be willing to take a risk on a a Dale Morris or a Matthew Boyd because AFL list spots are seen to be a huge investment cost.
    Have you been reading those Roddy Doyle books again, Dougal!?


    I have, yeah Ted, you big gobshite

  15. #43
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Twodogs View Post
    While I think that you can't have enough good footballers on your list...
    Obviously to argue the counter is folly...but what you need is a team full of really good players who don't actually realise they are really good players.

    Once the disease of more takes hold (you can thank Pat Riley for that one) then you are in trouble. Again - I think Treloar is terrific and has been terribly treated by Collingwood...and we probably would have been really (REALLY) stupid to not roll the dice. BUT having just watched the Dunkley saga play out - primarily (I suspect) related to money but with a "you'll be the main man" undercurrent" - I just worry that we have a heap of players who want/need POSSESSION in order to be happy...who want/need to play 'A ROLE' in order to be happy...and we have just added one more pea to the pod.

    I am obviously not an AFL coach but would have a LOT of trouble balancing minutes between so many inside mids. Of course, you just 'ride the hot hand' from week to week and that should be fine but players are not robots and most play best with certainty about their role...of course, they need to be able to 'go with it' and play where they are told, but that is easier to say than do...
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

  16. #44
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    Obviously to argue the counter is folly...but what you need is a team full of really good players who don't actually realise they are really good players.

    Once the disease of more takes hold (you can thank Pat Riley for that one) then you are in trouble. Again - I think Treloar is terrific and has been terribly treated by Collingwood...and we probably would have been really (REALLY) stupid to not roll the dice. BUT having just watched the Dunkley saga play out - primarily (I suspect) related to money but with a "you'll be the main man" undercurrent" - I just worry that we have a heap of players who want/need POSSESSION in order to be happy...who want/need to play 'A ROLE' in order to be happy...and we have just added one more pea to the pod.

    I am obviously not an AFL coach but would have a LOT of trouble balancing minutes between so many inside mids. Of course, you just 'ride the hot hand' from week to week and that should be fine but players are not robots and most play best with certainty about their role...of course, they need to be able to 'go with it' and play where they are told, but that is easier to say than do...
    Regarding mids I think that we were exceptionally lucky, or well managed, not to have more miss with injuries this year. While we seem to have a surplus right now maybe we will be relieved we have them all by July/August because a couple will be missing due to injury or needing a break. Especially if we return to 22 games (or maybe more?) of 18-20 minute quarters.

    Obviously to argue the counter is folly...but what you need is a team full of really good players who don't actually realise they are really good players.
    Do players tend to get onto AFL lists if they don't think they are good players? Some might miss an element that leaves them short of being truly great but one of the things I've noticed about your average AFL listed player is they aren't lacking in confidence. What you need is players who understand the team dynamic (that a good team is better than the overall sum of its parts) and are willing to do what it takes and sacrifice their own game for the betterment of the team.

    I know that he's not the flavour of the month but the guy I would offer as an example for this is Josh Bruce. There were a lot of games this year where he'd go for a run to exactly where the ball wasn't in order to take a couple of opponents out of the forward 50 in order to let others have a clearer run at the ball.
    Have you been reading those Roddy Doyle books again, Dougal!?


    I have, yeah Ted, you big gobshite

  17. #45
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    Re: Recruiting Treloar and Martin? Have we done the right thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by comrade View Post
    2016 was blessed in a lot of ways. Clay having a clear run at it for a brief time was one of those blessings.
    Sometimes this is all you need. A player to have a purple year or two and it can be the difference between being a contender or not. We’ve got a few players who are around the mark and could do that for us.

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