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  1. #16
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    Re: Why I'm optimistic about 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by merantau View Post
    A few observations. If Wally can become a goal kicking, crumbing, small forward then Rhylee West can do it too.
    I love your post by the way - and the responses.

    Just on this one though:

    1/. Is Wally a crumbing forward or a leading/marking medium sized forward?
    2/. Why do we want West to become a forward when clearly all his skills and experience to this point are as a mid...he *SHOULD* be into his 2nd season of becoming part of our mid rotation after spending year 1 as a VFL mid. I am a bit lost on his development plan right now. I mean - CAN he do it? Maybe. But he isn't going to be Eddie Betts or even Jamie Cripps...
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

  2. #17
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    Re: Why I'm optimistic about 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    I love your post by the way - and the responses.

    Just on this one though:

    1/. Is Wally a crumbing forward or a leading/marking medium sized forward?
    2/. Why do we want West to become a forward when clearly all his skills and experience to this point are as a mid...he *SHOULD* be into his 2nd season of becoming part of our mid rotation after spending year 1 as a VFL mid. I am a bit lost on his development plan right now. I mean - CAN he do it? Maybe. But he isn't going to be Eddie Betts or even Jamie Cripps...
    Wally is definitely not a crumbing forward, he gets all his kicks through marks and outbodying his opponent.
    Established 1877
    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  3. #18
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    Re: Why I'm optimistic about 2021.

    West should take the role Lipinski played in the EF (high forward, short bursts in mid).
    Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

  4. #19
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    Re: Why I'm optimistic about 2021.

    Finding optimism isn't difficult, there's objectively lots to like.

    Rewarding that optimism however ...

    Post-flag, we've been the competition's poster-child for underachievement.

    The tools are there, time to cash-in some promise for bona fide progress.
    BORDERLINE FLYING

  5. #20
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    Re: Why I'm optimistic about 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post

    Again - IS he a talent. We have seen nothing but glimpses - the fact the coaching staff can't seem to work out if he is a back, forward or ruckman makes me wonder about consistency and application...you move guys around when they are struggling to succeed...
    I'd argue that the only thing keeping him on the list are the glimpses of talent that he has shown so far. If it's talent that gets you on the list in the first place and then hard work and attitude that keeps you on the list and takes you to the next level, then Josh has only really shown the first part of the equation (talent) so far, but he has shown a fair bit of it and that's what has kept him in the state for five (?) years now.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1eyedog View Post
    The 10th best defence suggests otherwise. We also seem to struggle to score up the other end. We have 5 blue chip players and that's it. Bont, Macrae, Daniel, Treloar maybe Naughton maybe.
    That's only one person's opinion though. I'm not saying we have the best defence or anything but I wouldn't take McGuane's opinion as holy writ. It's not number one but our defence is better than the tenth best in the competition.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. Marcus Aurelius

  6. #21
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    Re: Why I'm optimistic about 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    I love your post by the way - and the responses.

    Just on this one though:

    1/. Is Wally a crumbing forward or a leading/marking medium sized forward?
    2/. Why do we want West to become a forward when clearly all his skills and experience to this point are as a mid...he *SHOULD* be into his 2nd season of becoming part of our mid rotation after spending year 1 as a VFL mid. I am a bit lost on his development plan right now. I mean - CAN he do it? Maybe. But he isn't going to be Eddie Betts or even Jamie Cripps...
    You are quite right. Wally does get most of his goals from out-bodying, leading into space.
    http://journals.worldnomads.com/merantau
    "It's not about the destination - it's about the trip."

  7. #22
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    Re: Why I'm optimistic about 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    Wally is definitely not a crumbing forward, he gets all his kicks through marks and outbodying his opponent.
    Yes, that is true. I think I had that marvellous goal - the one he kicked from inside the square when, under great duress, he managed to tap the ball clear of his opponent and on to his boot, slotting it from a tight angle - running through my mind when I wrote that.
    I remember well the first goal Rhylee West kicked. It was a beauty.
    I think we have so many midfield optionss he may have to re-invent himself to get a spot. The loss of both Clay Smith and Tory Dickson in the last couple of years provides an opportunity for someone like Rhylee to re-jig.

    Two things we really need to work on are goal kicking and efficiency in the front half.
    We have performed really badly in these two key areas for a long time now. Bombing the ball in hope is a very low percentage play.

    I would also like to see us hunt in packs and apply remorseless pressure to the ball carrier as we did in 2016. Handball Club needs to be re-visited too.

    I feel we are going to take a big step forward in 2021. "Each journey begins with a single step."
    http://journals.worldnomads.com/merantau
    "It's not about the destination - it's about the trip."

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  9. #23
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    Re: Why I'm optimistic about 2021.

    There are two key factors that will have a big say in whether the dogs win the flag this year:

    One is whether they can sort out their ruck issues. Stephan Martin will have to be managed and be cherry ripe for finals. English has great value to the side as a ruckman who can drift forward but he still gets slaughtered by the big hairy monsters at centre bounces. Martin should be managed in a way that is similar to the way Brisbane managed Keating during their 2001 to 2003 three- peat. Keating wasn't a world beater but he provided a tough contest in finals that allowed their mids to thrive. Martin might be able to do the same. At the same time, Martin in the ruck gives the dogs huge flexibility on match day, given the fact that English does possess a bit of forward craft. If English is able to spend 50% of his time forward , he'll kick 25 goals and provide an extra tall target.
    Which brings me to the second factor i.e. that someone needs to reinvent themselves as a key defender. Maybe Bruce or the Schack. The safer option is to throw Naughty Aaron back but I think that would be a shame as the dogs play some pretty entertaining footy when he's there as a target. On the other hand, if English spends a bit more time forward and the Ukulele wiz kid can make a reasonable contribution in his first year, AND Bruce or Schache can improve their output by 10% that probably allows Naughton to play back.
    Every other area on the list is covered IMV. If nothing else, the dogs will bat deep in 2021.

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  11. #24
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    Re: Why I'm optimistic about 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket surgeon View Post
    One is whether they can sort out their ruck issues. Stephan Martin will have to be managed and be cherry ripe for finals. English has great value to the side as a ruckman who can drift forward but he still gets slaughtered by the big hairy monsters at centre bounces. Martin should be managed in a way that is similar to the way Brisbane managed Keating during their 2001 to 2003 three- peat. Keating wasn't a world beater but he provided a tough contest in finals that allowed their mids to thrive. Martin might be able to do the same. At the same time, Martin in the ruck gives the dogs huge flexibility on match day, given the fact that English does possess a bit of forward craft. If English is able to spend 50% of his time forward , he'll kick 25 goals and provide an extra tall target.
    So - Martin is managed by not playing or by playing limited minutes in the ruck? 25 goals is a LOT for a part-time forward...that would translate (presumably) to 50-goals given a full-time role which I would think would have made him our leading goal kicker every year since Hall left.

    Further, where does Martin go when he isn't rucking? He isn't going to play forward and he isn't going to play back. Which means bench. Which means we are a running rotation down...which means if we get an injury...

    I'm sure you're right and these two will play together but I still don't understand how the reality is going to work and how we are going to cover the missing runner...

    Running players (btw) is of course where we should be strong. So an extra ruck on the bench means one less forward or one less defender...which means more mids playing forward and back. And as we have seen in the past, forcing guys out of their 'natural' positions can lead to inconsistency in both mindset and game-day outcomes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket surgeon View Post
    Which brings me to the second factor i.e. that someone needs to reinvent themselves as a key defender. Maybe Bruce or the Schack. The safer option is to throw Naughty Aaron back but I think that would be a shame as the dogs play some pretty entertaining footy when he's there as a target. On the other hand, if English spends a bit more time forward and the Ukulele wiz kid can make a reasonable contribution in his first year, AND Bruce or Schache can improve their output by 10% that probably allows Naughton to play back.
    What has happened to Le Young? He was playing in a final as a key defender 18months ago and now one of the guys who was recruited (mature age as well so we knew what we were getting) as a forward needs to become a defender?

    The back 7 is ???:

    Keath - Duryea - Williams - Daniel - Crozier and take your pick from 2 of Wood, Gardner, Richards, Cordy, Le Young, Butler...I think there are questions about smalls and talls here. As an aside, I have gifted Crozier a spot but his last 6-8 weeks last season were poor2average and he might be under pressure as well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocket surgeon View Post
    Every other area on the list is covered IMV. If nothing else, the dogs will bat deep in 2021.
    Who plays small forward? We have 0x. We need 1-2.
    Who plays outside mid? We need 3x. We have Hunter.
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

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  13. #25
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    Re: Why I'm optimistic about 2021.

    Would not surprise me if Martin rucks greater than 80% game time. Not every week, but when he plays he's on the field the majority of the match.
    Josh Schache >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jake Stringer

  14. #26
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    Re: Why I'm optimistic about 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1eyedog View Post
    Would not surprise me if Martin rucks greater than 80% game time. Not every week, but when he plays he's on the field the majority of the match.
    English plays 2's?

    If you say yes, then I agree with what you are saying...
    1x ruckman. 85% gametime spent IN THE RUCK.
    Support from 'somewhere'. Where though...where?

    Young if he is playing forward?
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

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  16. #27
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    Re: Why I'm optimistic about 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    English plays 2's?

    If you say yes, then I agree with what you are saying...
    1x ruckman. 85% gametime spent IN THE RUCK.
    Support from 'somewhere'. Where though...where?

    Young if he is playing forward?
    Even though I see him as a permanent CHB , Young Might be a back up ruckman. I saw him in a vfl game where he shared the ruck with Tom Boyd and he looked very good. Boyd did not look as competitive in the role.

    Still think English should be our permanent 2nd ruck, and we will just have to put up with the 30 goals he contributes as a forward.

    Bruce, Schache, and Naughton all play worse after a run in the ruck.

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  18. #28
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    Re: Why I'm optimistic about 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    English plays 2's?

    If you say yes, then I agree with what you are saying...
    1x ruckman. 85% gametime spent IN THE RUCK.
    Support from 'somewhere'. Where though...where?

    Young if he is playing forward?
    I'm wondering if English can play forward?
    Josh Schache >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jake Stringer

  19. #29
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    Re: Why I'm optimistic about 2021.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1eyedog View Post
    I'm wondering if English can play forward?
    With Naughton?
    Or with Naughton and Bruce?
    Or with Naughton and Schache?
    Or with Naughton and Bruce and Schache?

    How many talls are we gonna stick down there given all of our mid-sizers and smalls seem to be primarily lead/mark players? Or midfielders!
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

  20. #30
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    Re: Why I'm optimistic about 2021.

    Naughton can play back and in all honesty I'd try Bruce back there also. Either one of them back and English forward. If martin can ruck big minutes surely we must assume that English's output can surpass Bruce's of last year. He is an excellent overhead mark.

    Schache, well we don't even know if he's going to be played at all. I dunno, I'm still lost on why we would play English as our number 1 ruck for two years straight and then bring in Martin. I'm just trying to look at ways it can work
    Josh Schache >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jake Stringer

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