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View Poll Results: Rating our list 2020 Lewis Young 2

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  • AFL quality

    7 36.84%
  • VFL quality

    6 31.58%
  • Delist

    0 0%
  • Needs more time

    6 31.58%
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  1. #31
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    Re: Rating our list 2020 Lewis Young 2

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzadogs View Post
    - his one-on-one W/L record (I think champion data only release that selectively)
    You can find this stat for every player on the AFL website. A tip for everyone - particularly Danjul - the StatsPro section of the AFL Website has great stats for every player - AFL tables is useful for only very basic information.

    Young's career Contested Defence Loss Percentage is 26.8%. As a comparison Cordy is known to be one of the worst regular defenders in the league in this stat and his career average is 29.6% (but a much improved 15.8% in 2020).

    Overall just looking at Young's stats he comes off pretty well. Even some of the elite KPDs in the league have career Contested Defence Loss Percentages in the low 20s. Lewis rates elite or above average in some important areas for a KPD - spoils, intercept marks, 1 %s, rebound 50s, intercept possessions. Where he is below the standard is in disposal efficiency and kicking efficiency (deadly for a deep defender), tackles, contested marks and contested possessions.

    What these stats tell me is that he has performed well as an intercept defender playing a fairly unaccountable role. However he needs to develop the contested side of his game and tidy up his kicking as we all know when the likes of Cordy of Gardner spray a kick it invariably results in a goal for the opposition. He needs look no further than Alex Keath as an intercept player that has successfully transitioned to a more lock down role.

    Also, as has been pointed out many, many times, there are obviously reasons why Young has not been picked more other than what he has displayed on the field at AFL level. I hold out hope he can still become a player for us, however, if he was a lay down misere to make it I have no doubt another club would have come after him in the trade period and I suspect we would have listened to any halfway decent offer.

  2. #32
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    Re: Rating our list 2020 Lewis Young 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe Man View Post
    You can find this stat for every player on the AFL website. A tip for everyone - particularly Danjul - the StatsPro section of the AFL Website has great stats for every player - AFL tables is useful for only very basic information.

    Young's ..... is below the standard is in disposal efficiency and kicking efficiency (deadly for a deep defender), tackles, contested marks and contested possessions.

    He needs look no further than Alex Keath as an intercept player that has successfully transitioned to a more lock down role.
    Thanks for this, I found it very interesting and I appreciate the detail.

    When I looked at Keath’s figures with us I find:

    disposals - 6 ,6 , 6 , 7 , 8, 8, ...... In one third of his games he is barely getting the ball. Contested or not. Best - 15

    tackles - 0,0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0. ....... That’s right. 0 tackles in half his games. In six of the others he had only 1. That’s 14 games for 6 tackles, your measure for success.

    Contested marks - rounds 2 to 18 ..... inclusive Keath took only 8. And never more than 1 in a game.

    Similarly, Gardner took 1 contested mark for the season. Tackles - 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1 ....... that’s more than half of his games.

    And he got consecutive games as a key defender.

    This is not criticism of Keath or Gardner, but it again highlights how in any direct comparison everyone is better than Young.

    Personally I think contested marks, for example, are overrated because they are rare and that’s why they are memorable. I like the way Keath plays close to his opponents. It is his most valuable characteristics and wish Cordy would follow his example.

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  4. #33
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    Re: Rating our list 2020 Lewis Young 2

    The decision to recruit and play Gardner Bruce and Keath in 2020 didn’t improve our position on the ladder from 2019. Not having Footscray play last year certainly didn’t help both Lew Young and Schache gain more senior games.
    The fact that both have been retained on the list would suggest that the MC still acknowledges their worth. Neither our key defence and forwards have shown that we are good enough to progress to a final 4 contender.
    Both Young and Schache have shown the potential to improve our goal to goal line as a prerequisite to our team performances from what has been shown over the past two years.

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  6. #34
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    Re: Rating our list 2020 Lewis Young 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuggety Back Pocket View Post
    The fact that both have been retained on the list would suggest that the MC still acknowledges their worth.
    I imagine them being contracted and likely a lack of suitors played a significant part in them remaining on the list.

  7. #35
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    Re: Rating our list 2020 Lewis Young 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe Man View Post
    I imagine them being contracted and likely a lack of suitors played a significant part in them remaining on the list.
    Gardner is a good trainer by all accounts and would surely be on base salary, so there's the cap management issue to consider.
    Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers

  8. #36
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    Re: Rating our list 2020 Lewis Young 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Mofra View Post
    Gardner is a good trainer by all accounts and would surely be on base salary, so there's the cap management issue to consider.
    This was only in reference to Young and Schache.

  9. #37
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    Re: Rating our list 2020 Lewis Young 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Danjul View Post
    He only played 7 games in his first year. And apart from the last they were excellent for an 18?? year old.

    The previous week he had 7 one percenters, equal to Dale Morris. They also had the same number of possessions and marks ! Nobody questioned MorrisÂ’ endeavour.

    In the game against GWS in round 22 in 2019, his first game back after being dropped for 20, he took 7 marks. That was the most for the whole team. His 17 possessions was more than double CordyÂ’s 7 and just behind DureyaÂ’s 19, two popular backmen on Woof .

    unfortunately he had less marks the following week, only 5. The same as Naughton. And Naughton had nearly as many disposals, 9 compared to YoungÂ’s 14.

    HeÂ’s only had 2 games since then.

    Your comments highlight the fact that everyone holds Young to an impossible standard.
    Did you just compare Lewis Young to Dale Morris because he had the same number of 1%'ers in a game?

    Ridiculously long bow to draw that the expectations placed on him are "impossibly high". His final games of 2018 he was tentative and ineffective. Stats only work in an argument is they have substance and no. of 1%'ers just doesnt stack up in this instance.
    The dam wall has busted!

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  11. #38
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    Re: Rating our list 2020 Lewis Young 2

    Quote Originally Posted by AshMac View Post
    Did you just compare Lewis Young to Dale Morris because he had the same number of 1%'ers in a game?

    Ridiculously long bow to draw that the expectations placed on him are "impossibly high". His final games of 2018 he was tentative and ineffective. Stats only work in an argument is they have substance and no. of 1%'ers just doesnt stack up in this instance.
    What I compared are actual events.

    If Young has the same number of marks in a game as Naughton, then he has the same number of marks as Naughton.
    Most contributors here on Woof would argue that he hasn’t because only Naughton can have the same number of marks as Naughton.

    When Young had 21 possessions and 9 marks in his first game that became a fact. When Morris took 52 (consecutive??) games to beat those measures of performance he does not cancel out Young’s achievement.

    Now I am quite comfortable with people using a two step evaluation of performance. First, what is the number? Second, who got it. But the second shouldn’t cancel the first because it is the wrong name.

    What Young has done on a number of occasions has been creditable and that should be recognised and appreciated. When he has a poor game that should be recognised. Fair is fair.

    You referred to his final games of 2018, he only had two games in 2018. Games 8 and 9 for him.

    They were pretty ordinary, 10 and 9 possessions- 7 kicks in each. And 14 and 10 one percenters.
    For comparison, in his 13th game Morris had 2 kicks and 3 handballs. And 8 one percenters, his equal maximum for the year.

    And was selected the next week.

    And how did Morris do in his games 8 and 9? 11 and 9 possessions and 2 and 4 one percenters.

    The comparison is: 19 possessions and 24 one percenters against 20 possessions and 6 one percenters. Yes, I see what you mean. One player is clearly rubbish and the other is a superstar.

    And in his first 17 games Morris had 8 possessions 5 times. And 9 possessions 5 times. Looked at another way, in 11 games in a season Morris could not exceed the standard that you use to dismiss Young.

    It was only after he had played 20 consecutive games that Morris started to generate consistent performances that were better than what you use to dismiss Young. And many people are confident that Young won’t get to 20.

    And never once in his first 17 games, did Morris kick the ball 7 times. I like the fact that Young had a natural tendency to kick.

    I like Morris and he became a true champion, but that only happened because people had faith in his talent and gave him time. Even when he was tentative and ineffective and worse than Young. In my opinion Morris would struggle to get a game if he was starting out now. It is unfortunate that people use what he eventually became as an excuse to diminish others.

  12. #39
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    Re: Rating our list 2020 Lewis Young 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Danjul View Post
    I like Morris and he became a true champion, but that only happened because people had faith in his talent and gave him time. Even when he was tentative and ineffective and worse than Young. In my opinion Morris would struggle to get a game if he was starting out now. It is unfortunate that people use what he eventually became as an excuse to diminish others.
    Morris shut down Andrew McLeod in is first game, completely.
    These stats comparisons simply reinforce that stats don't tell the whole story. If they did, Lynch would still be on our list.
    Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers

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  14. #40
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    Re: Rating our list 2020 Lewis Young 2

    Stats are not a defenders benchmark and never will be. Dale Morris had the uncanny ability to either win or neutralize most one v one contests he was involved in and that is why we love him. Lewy Young is quite poor in this area and until he improves this part of his game he will struggle to play regular senior football. (And yes I am aware that Cordy is not great in this area either).

  15. #41
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    Re: Rating our list 2020 Lewis Young 2

    I can't think of a less apt comparison for Young than Morris. Young's whole deal is playing off/in front of his man and looking to intercept. I reckon the only time Morris got goal side of an opponent was when he happened to fall to Buddy's left while tackling him in the grand final.
    - I'm a visionary - Only here to confirm my biases -

  16. #42
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    Re: Rating our list 2020 Lewis Young 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Mofra View Post
    Morris shut down Andrew McLeod in is first game, completely.
    These stats comparisons simply reinforce that stats don't tell the whole story. If they did, Lynch would still be on our list.
    McLeod had 7 bounces in that game. He only exceeded that number 4 times (max 9) in 330 games. He also got a goal.

    Shut down completely? Don’t think so. That’s exaggeration. But OK.

    Neutralised, maybe more accurate.


    possibly relevant,
    the Dogs had 35 scoring shots so were generally dominant. Confirmed by the fact that the Dogs had 100 more disposals.

    Scott West had 38. Even Gia had a day out with 21 kicks, the most in his first 100 games.

    5 Adelaide players had over 15 possessions, 5 of the Dogs had more than Adelaide‘s best (only 25).


    I’m not criticising Morris or any other player. Just presenting facts which make me believe that many others don’t, beyond the fact that some players are/were great. The stats can paint a more nuanced picture than Using selective memory, which is not in the club’s best interest if it goes beyond WOOF.

    Personally, I just want all recruits to be given a chance contribute to the club’s success (the way Bruce was).

  17. #43
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    Re: Rating our list 2020 Lewis Young 2

    It's not only stats you can selectively pull from the interwebs these days, here's a match report of the game:

    https://www.smh.com.au/sport/morris-...25-gdl6ve.html

    Pretty emphatic endorsement of Morris's performance.

    So while seven bounces is great for McLeod, I think the major theme for his review the following week would have been how to make sure when tagged he can still get his hands on the ball as a prime mover for Adelaide.
    Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.

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  19. #44
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    Re: Rating our list 2020 Lewis Young 2

    Is the hypothesis that not only are contributors to this web page not putting enough emphasis on stats accumulated, but it's also the entire industry and most who follow and comment on it who are making the error?

    I can understand the frustration of players seeming to be measured differently on face value, though not every player plays the same role in the team and not every role is equal.

    Additionally, a one percenter for spoils awarded doesn't mean the spoils were the same or enacted under the same circumstances. A running bounce in open space isn't the same as a running bounce bursting away from congestion after a disputed ball, but they're running bounces nonetheless.

    That's why people are saying you need to add some context to the statistics you see, rather than just presenting them as a definitive measure of what took place on the day.
    Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.

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  21. #45
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    Re: Rating our list 2020 Lewis Young 2

    Quote Originally Posted by jeemak View Post
    Is the hypothesis that not only are contributors to this web page not putting enough emphasis on stats accumulated, but it's also the entire industry and most who follow and comment on it who are making the error?

    I can understand the frustration of players seeming to be measured differently on face value, though not every player plays the same role in the team and not every role is equal.

    Additionally, a one percenter for spoils awarded doesn't mean the spoils were the same or enacted under the same circumstances. A running bounce in open space isn't the same as a running bounce bursting away from congestion after a disputed ball, but they're running bounces nonetheless.

    That's why people are saying you need to add some context to the statistics you see, rather than just presenting them as a definitive measure of what took place on the day.
    I have not done that.

    What i have said is Young has played some good footy and I don’t think he has received sufficient credit.

    I have raised stats as a way of reinforcing that conclusion. And every reference to a measure of performance has been dismissed.

    So here is my opinion:

    When Lewis Young played in his first 2 AFL games as an 18 year old and had 37 disposals (8 contested) 19 marks and 8 one percenters - 5 easy to address measures of a footballer, he had rare start to his career and showed special talent. And he has been quite reasonable is most other games. I am very disappointed in what the club has done to benefit from that opportunity. I also think the club is worse off for his extended absences since his debut.

    So nail your flag to the mast.

    Be the first to give a contrasting opinion supported by evidence.

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