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  1. #1
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    On the day - The CBD conundrum.

    So. Again - Writing this without having watched the telecast.

    The move into the ruck of Jackson around the 10-min mark of q3 really (REALLY) seemed to change the game. The ground level follow-up provided by Jackson seemed to be causing a real problem, we weren't holding the point on the defensive side and one of the Melbourne mids (notably Petracca) was disengaging from the contest and pushing forward...

    From the telecast, did it look (as it did live) like our centre square group were really over-hunting/over-focussed on possession/winning the ball versus holding structure and keeping their opponents in front of them? We seemed to be trying to address the challenge by trying to 'WIN' it, rather than just taking the air out of the game and halving it for a while - forcing a secondary stoppage, bringing up a 5th (and a 6th, and a 7th) and just slowing it the hell down. I have this memory from early in the 4th - and let's be honest, the game was all but shot at 3/4 time - of Liber starting in the 'receive spot' and trying to win it...and Bont starting in a sweeper style position but leaving that spot and trying to win it...Oliver actually winning it and flipping it out to a streaking Petracca with no-one separating him from the forwards...

    Was there any suggestion from the commentators that we should radically change our centre square group or modify our approach to that part of the game? Was anyone else thinking a group of Bailey Williams and Roarke Smith as 'twin sweepers' with one of the Bont/Liber/Macrae group acting as a ball winner and defensive wingers on both sides? Was there any real change in strategy (it didn't seem to change watching at the ground).

    To me it seemed we were ready for Gawn but in no way prepared for Jackson and once he started acting as a 4th mid + ruck, the game was up. I guess I was disappointed as this is how Melbourne beat Geelong (albeit with Gawn in the ruck chair) scoring 102 points from Stoppage that night and I assumed we would be 'ready' if things started going awry.
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

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  3. #2
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    Re: On the day - The CBD conundrum.

    Daisy Pearce actually mentioned the change of Jackson going in had a massive impact.

    It's been noted across a few threads that we clearly had a win it rather than stop it mindset and it cost us. It came through really clearly on the telecast.
    Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.

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  5. #3
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    Re: On the day - The CBD conundrum.

    Not only should we have expected melbourne to do it, but we’ve been thoroughly beaten like this in previous games this season. Is it perhaps poor awareness from the players to recognise it and adjust accordingly? Poor on field leadership to enforce specific instructions? We’ve got some seasoned guys in there that surely don’t need a quarter time break to get the downlow from Bevo. It’s a really mystery to me how we either a) didn’t see this coming and/or b) didn’t recognise it or know how to adjust to it. Like you said mjp, surely we knew Melbourne love to play exactly like this.

  6. #4
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    Re: On the day - The CBD conundrum.

    Melbourne did this, or should I say, we setup like this, all through the third quarter too. Even when we were on top, Melbourne were winning all the clearances. We were just fortunate the ball bounced our way a bit with a fumble or two. But the danger signs were there before we went 19 up.

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    Re: On the day - The CBD conundrum.

    Gawn mentioned it in the interview immediately after the game too.
    Jackson was a 'jumper' as opposed to Martin/Gawn as old-school rucks. Completely changed the look of teh game and our mids didn't adjust their position to adequately defend the space in front of the centre square stoppage.
    Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers

  8. #6
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    Re: On the day - The CBD conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    So. Again - Writing this without having watched the telecast.

    The move into the ruck of Jackson around the 10-min mark of q3 really (REALLY) seemed to change the game. The ground level follow-up provided by Jackson seemed to be causing a real problem, we weren't holding the point on the defensive side and one of the Melbourne mids (notably Petracca) was disengaging from the contest and pushing forward...

    From the telecast, did it look (as it did live) like our centre square group were really over-hunting/over-focussed on possession/winning the ball versus holding structure and keeping their opponents in front of them? We seemed to be trying to address the challenge by trying to 'WIN' it, rather than just taking the air out of the game and halving it for a while - forcing a secondary stoppage, bringing up a 5th (and a 6th, and a 7th) and just slowing it the hell down. I have this memory from early in the 4th - and let's be honest, the game was all but shot at 3/4 time - of Liber starting in the 'receive spot' and trying to win it...and Bont starting in a sweeper style position but leaving that spot and trying to win it...Oliver actually winning it and flipping it out to a streaking Petracca with no-one separating him from the forwards...

    Was there any suggestion from the commentators that we should radically change our centre square group or modify our approach to that part of the game? Was anyone else thinking a group of Bailey Williams and Roarke Smith as 'twin sweepers' with one of the Bont/Liber/Macrae group acting as a ball winner and defensive wingers on both sides? Was there any real change in strategy (it didn't seem to change watching at the ground).

    To me it seemed we were ready for Gawn but in no way prepared for Jackson and once he started acting as a 4th mid + ruck, the game was up. I guess I was disappointed as this is how Melbourne beat Geelong (albeit with Gawn in the ruck chair) scoring 102 points from Stoppage that night and I assumed we would be 'ready' if things started going awry.
    I vaguely remember the commentators mentioning after Melbourne kicked their 3rd or 4th goal before 3/4 time how all of our mids ended up on the attacking side of the centre circle and couldn't do anything but pretty much stand and watch the Melbourne mids stream into attack.
    Have you been reading those Roddy Doyle books again, Dougal!?


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  9. #7
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    Re: On the day - The CBD conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    So. Again - Writing this without having watched the telecast.

    The move into the ruck of Jackson around the 10-min mark of q3 really (REALLY) seemed to change the game. The ground level follow-up provided by Jackson seemed to be causing a real problem, we weren't holding the point on the defensive side and one of the Melbourne mids (notably Petracca) was disengaging from the contest and pushing forward...

    From the telecast, did it look (as it did live) like our centre square group were really over-hunting/over-focussed on possession/winning the ball versus holding structure and keeping their opponents in front of them? We seemed to be trying to address the challenge by trying to 'WIN' it, rather than just taking the air out of the game and halving it for a while - forcing a secondary stoppage, bringing up a 5th (and a 6th, and a 7th) and just slowing it the hell down. I have this memory from early in the 4th - and let's be honest, the game was all but shot at 3/4 time - of Liber starting in the 'receive spot' and trying to win it...and Bont starting in a sweeper style position but leaving that spot and trying to win it...Oliver actually winning it and flipping it out to a streaking Petracca with no-one separating him from the forwards...

    Was there any suggestion from the commentators that we should radically change our centre square group or modify our approach to that part of the game? Was anyone else thinking a group of Bailey Williams and Roarke Smith as 'twin sweepers' with one of the Bont/Liber/Macrae group acting as a ball winner and defensive wingers on both sides? Was there any real change in strategy (it didn't seem to change watching at the ground).

    To me it seemed we were ready for Gawn but in no way prepared for Jackson and once he started acting as a 4th mid + ruck, the game was up. I guess I was disappointed as this is how Melbourne beat Geelong (albeit with Gawn in the ruck chair) scoring 102 points from Stoppage that night and I assumed we would be 'ready' if things started going awry.
    That's very perceptive mjp. My recollection of the centre bounces is similar, that it wasn't a clean tap to their mids but a struggle on the deck with the ball ricocheting around. I attributed their clearance domination to a drop in commitment from us but it could well have been Jackson acting a 4th mid combined with an overly aggressive set-up from us.

    Groan - I don't really want to watch any part of that game again!

  10. #8
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    Re: On the day - The CBD conundrum.

    It looked like we were tired - out jumped, out muscled, out run. Tactics and structure can't hide this
    If you kicked five goals and Tom Boyd kicked five goals, Tom Boyd kicked more goals than you.

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  11. #9
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    Re: On the day - The CBD conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by boydogs View Post
    It looked like we were tired - out jumped, out muscled, out run. Tactics and structure can't hide this
    I haven't watched the replay yet, but I will eventually. A family member of mine who isn't close to up to date with strategy or tactics pinpointed that straight away and I was so pissed off with our positioning that I discarded it.

    Within an hour or two after the game I softened and called her and admitted she seemed right, on reflection right from the word go they were running on top of the ground better than we were, additionally they seemed to have as far as the TV telecast allows both defencive and offencive advantage in numbers which isn't a good sign.

    I've since accepted it's likely we were coming from a long way off, but the media gas-lit me and pretty much everyone else into believing we had the freshness advantage because they had only played once in 28 days and we'd been a one team *!*!*!*! hole for that time. Funnily, nobody ever calls out that one in 28 after the game turned into three in 30.....

    They deserved it, we may have been tired, but there's no excuse for not setting up properly when we should have. That's actually the thing you do when you're tired to keep shit together.
    Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.

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  13. #10
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    Re: On the day - The CBD conundrum.

    I really believe fundamentally there's a game management void in this sport when I compare to my other love the world game for eg.

    I find it aggravating at times the rigidity I see with some of the coaching; it shows such a disdain for fluidity and phases and gets stuck in the mire; completely non reactive to game situations.

    I know my hobby horse in here is tempo footy, identifying and reacting to situations and I'm flogging it to death in this post!

    John Longmire, like the Toe Cutter he knows who I am (well what I'm saying at least!) is one of the really great coaches for mine, seems to have a play book to draw on that works.

    Possession, lead, mark, repeat; drain the clock, wrest back control. Suffocate movement where necessary.



    Petracca cheats forward, he's done it all season I even mentioned it prior to the game.

    At 3 and a bit goals down they were going to roll the dice with their attacking setup we just had to be aware of this and setup accordingly.

    One more goal we have them really starting to panic.

    Hindsight is wonderful but I would have loved to see a ten minute phase of defending the stoppage.

    Someone call it!

    I want to see the mid group huddled calling a play.

    You put your park the bus / maintain the status quo midfield in (Dunks, Libba, Treloar, Cordy for eg) and you play the game in the proper phase for the situation.




    Running the same play hoping for the best well...



    With 666 you just have to have this is your arsenal. One of the most bruise free GF's I've seen, 666, stand no third man up etc really hasnt done the game any favours for mine.

    I know the best players have basket ball backgrounds but enough already with the attacking circle jerk.



    A quote from the Cauldron re the US and "Soccer" describes my sentiment well :

    "Fans don’t inherently love scoring, they love the plays that most affect what they do love: winning."

    I'd expand on that and say, plays that also stop you losing (think Duryea v Lions).

    Back on topic; in the world game, you're a goal up in the 65th in a knock-out final, you adjust!

    Back 5? Your wing backs don't push forward, your attacking midfielder sits in the pocket, players all sit deeper and narrower, soak up the heat, attack on the counter.

    What do we do? Drop the +1? Take a leaf out of the Ross Lyon playbook of genius and put your extra where you need it?



    103 - 7, in a GF in 40 mins and we barely reacted. I'm still in shock to be honest.

    Not sure I'll ever work out the lack of urgency, the blank pages in the playbook.

    I'm not sure this makes any sense at all but it feels good to post again haha.

    Plus I got a Mad Max reference in so for me...

    Nothing but net!


  14. #11
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    Re: On the day - The CBD conundrum.

    Great post Granty I'm still at a loss why defending our 19 point lead midway through the third wasn't high on the radar. I get you can lose a game by not trying to win it but we really needed to adjust after they kicked the goal against the flow of play that put them to within 13 points.

    The quarter needed to be shut down and it wasn't. We needed to make the end of the 3rd a battle of attrition but we didn't seem to have anything left to give.

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  16. #12
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    Re: On the day - The CBD conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1eyedog View Post
    Great post Granty I'm still at a loss why defending our 19 point lead midway through the third wasn't high on the radar. I get you can lose a game by not trying to win it but we really needed to adjust after they kicked the goal against the flow of play that put them to within 13 points.

    The quarter needed to be shut down and it wasn't. We needed to make the end of the 3rd a battle of attrition but we didn't seem to have anything left to give.
    Agree. We really do appear from the outside to have very few levers to pull when things go awry.

    Maybe that's more systemic of the coaching attitudes across the board, we believe in our way ergo our system or bust type mentality?

  17. #13
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    Re: On the day - The CBD conundrum.

    The lead up to the game was all Melbourne. The aftermath has been all Melbourne. I’m surprised there hasn’t been more talk about our collapse to be honest. It was one of the most dramatic collapses ever seen. Melbourne are good but I’m just not going to give them all the credit for it. Not when we’ve allowed far inferior teams to do the same thing.

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  19. #14
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    Re: On the day - The CBD conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogsthru&thru View Post
    The lead up to the game was all Melbourne. The aftermath has been all Melbourne. IÂ’m surprised there hasnÂ’t been more talk about our collapse to be honest. It was one of the most dramatic collapses ever seen. Melbourne are good but IÂ’m just not going to give them all the credit for it. Not when weÂ’ve allowed far inferior teams to do the same thing.
    That 2019 draft they absolutely killed it. Jackson and Pickett, I mean Jackson went after Rowell and Anderson. Pickett they moved up the order to get him ?

    They missed the 18 super draft early too by trading out for Lever in 17 (future) and 6 (Hogan) for May and Kolodjashnij (6 was GC King) but still managed to get Sparrow and Jordan with later picks. Amazing recruiting.

    But yes ultimately agree it’s probably the biggest blow out in almost any game I can recall. I mean 97 was what 4 goals and that was unheard of. I’m worried about the long term psychological effect but time will tell and really, yes I’m going to be that guy….it wasn’t a level playing field in the finals series so I do have a big asterisk next to this flag.

    Of course on the day, considering the scenario for both teams the Demons were better, I think they play a great territory game forward and have a resolute defence back. Have guys sacrificing for the greater good (Brayshaw) so “Trac” can play the Dusty role.

    But they came from outside the 8 in the previous two seasons, so it’s really almost unheard of the way they dominated after half time in that rd 23 game v the Cats. I’d written them off they looked pathetic in that second quarter where the cats kicked 8 goals to 2 and had a 7 goal break at the half and 5 goal break at 3/4 time.

    I don’t think they’re that much of an outrider that forward line isn’t A grade, but crikey they either have Steven Dank back there somewhere (Goodwin’s mate) or they just had one of the all time great seasons from former Arsenal man Burgess.

    Fitness and Recruiting, put those guys on the podium with Yze.

    As for them mocking our celebration, expected nothing less and tbh I’m not sure it was wise for us to do it in the first place.

  20. #15
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    Re: On the day - The CBD conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grantysghost View Post
    I want to see the mid group huddled calling a play.
    The scarey part is mate the midfield group WERE huddling together before each CBD. What they were actually talking about though is the question that should be asked.
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

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