Our ruck conundrum

[DOG GOD]

DG, sorry mate but I cannot agree with this at all. Why would we chase Soldo, why would we trade for Stef? Stef wasn't first choice, but that is all we could do at the time.

Bevo is not looking for a ruckman that is just good at tap outs, his ideal is what Melbourne have. A ruckman like Gawn, who can win tap outs, take marks around the ground, be able to go up forward. English is working towards that. For a second ruck, a Jackson type would suit because he also can play a number of rolls on the ground as well as go into the ruck.

This is where the game is heading, but unfortunately, clubs aren't willing to wait awhile for young guys to mature and get them into these roles. We have been very patient with Tim and it is coming to fruition, but we haven't nailed the second ruck role.

Darcy is a possible in the future, Schache could work, but we know his deficiencies.

There is a role for ruckman, but long gone are the lumbering types who are great at tap outs, but useless for the rest of the game.

No worries Bornadog. Melb won the lottery with Jackson that’s for sure.
Soldo I don’t rate at all and would only be a slight upgrade on sweet.
Darcy is miles away and English is not a first ruck.
Martin was chosen as desperation and that has been shown to be the case.

The fact that Bevo etc would risk Bont, Naughton, Dunkley etc in ruck contests instead of playing Sweet is bewildering and nothing but stupidity. Ok, he hasn’t set the world on fire (sweet), but he can do just as well as English in the centre square, and English can be very damaging up forward, especially with Bruce down.
Schache doesn’t have the aggressive balls to play ruck.

So, even if we went after mediocre rucks in the preseason, does that mean that sweet and Martin were only given contracts because we literally had no choice in the matter?

[DOG GOD]

It's a bit confusing, English is a decent ruckman and has some ability as a forward. If Bruce was playing I think we would have Bevo's ideal set-up of a 80% game time ruckman being supported Bruce. I don't think that is sufficient but I think that would be his preference.

Martin being fit and English up forward while Bruce is recovering was probably plan B with Sweet as the back up in case we cop injuries or suspension.

We should have looked to add either a versatile forward to cover Bruce and/or a ruckman so that English could move forward and in the end we did neither. We even thinned the ranks a bit further when we lost Lewis Young who as we all know was preferred last year over Sweet.
Darcy is a project player and even injury free would have been very unlikely to have played much footy this year given his build and the lack of development over the last two year.

Hannan, Schache, Cordy and the likes of Bont, Dunks and Naughton might be used from time to time this year.

I still dont see English as the #1 ruck. Early last year with English, Bruce and Naughton fwd we looked to have the ideal setup. Martin in ruck.
When Bruce went down we should have thrown everything at a similar ilk, knowing Bruce was pretty much gone for the year. Halfway through last year it was obvious Martin was done. Sweet should’ve played when Martin went down, but didn’t.
I don’t know where this leaves us.

[MrMahatma]

Are we losing centre clearances? I guess that’s Bevo’s market for success? I kind of get his theory about hit outs, in general, compared to having another mid type around the stoppage. I guess the job of the makeshift ruck isn’t to win the hit out but to try and prevent a lost hit out being one to advantage of the opponents. Don’t even know where I’d look at for those stats to see if it’s even remotely working,

Are we judging based on optics (it does look stupid at times!) compared to output?

Apart from the GF and a few mins against ESS last year, have we been torched out of the guts much? Carlton got a few decent looks from centre bounce I think.

[G-Mo77]

Sweet did nothing wrong last season and was never welcomed back. We may as well give him a long string of games as 1st Ruck, English moves back to Fwd/Pinch Ruck and that is where we were most dangerous last season IMHO. Why we bandaged up Stef like a Mummy and brought him into 2022 I'll never know. There are many free hit rucks from the off season running around at AFL level now, any would have been a logical choice, none of them is negligent.

[Ghost Dog]

No worries Bornadog. Melb won the lottery with Jackson that’s for sure.
Soldo I don’t rate at all and would only be a slight upgrade on sweet.
Darcy is miles away and English is not a first ruck.
Martin was chosen as desperation and that has been shown to be the case.

The fact that Bevo etc would risk Bont, Naughton, Dunkley etc in ruck contests instead of playing Sweet is bewildering and nothing but stupidity. Ok, he hasn’t set the world on fire (sweet), but he can do just as well as English in the centre square, and English can be very damaging up forward, especially with Bruce down.
Schache doesn’t have the aggressive balls to play ruck.

So, even if we went after mediocre rucks in the preseason, does that mean that sweet and Martin were only given contracts because we literally had no choice in the matter?

Darcy is miles away because of injury, body weight or craft?
And what's the expected time taken for him to play a role?

To risk Bont in the ruck is pretty frightening, and Naughton.

[Danjul]

Are we losing centre clearances? I guess that’s Bevo’s market for success? I kind of get his theory about hit outs, in general, compared to having another mid type around the stoppage. I guess the job of the makeshift ruck isn’t to win the hit out but to try and prevent a lost hit out being one to advantage of the opponents. Don’t even know where I’d look at for those stats to see if it’s even remotely working,

Are we judging based on optics (it does look stupid at times!) compared to output?

Apart from the GF and a few mins against ESS last year, have we been torched out of the guts much? Carlton got a few decent looks from centre bounce I think.

In professional sports the only marker of success is winning. And continued winning.

Early Last year the club’s happiness register showed an historic high, and the team seemed to be on trajectory for an era of dominance. My memory of the time was most Woof comments were positive and welcomed the change to the 3 tall forwards and a tap ruck.

We lost against Richmond, I think Martin went off injured and we lost control of the middle. We lost against Melbourne when Sweet came up against the competition’s best ruckman. Only winning 10 of the first 12 games demanded a new strategy and I’m sure we’ll find a workable plan eventually.

[Ghost Dog]

In professional sports the only marker of success is winning. And continued winning.

Early Last year the club’s happiness register showed an historic high, and the team seemed to be on trajectory for an era of dominance. My memory of the time was most Woof comments were positive and welcomed the change to the 3 tall forwards and a tap ruck.

We lost against Richmond, I think Martin went off injured and we lost control of the middle. We lost against Melbourne when Sweet came up against the competition’s best ruckman. Only winning 10 of the first 12 games demanded a new strategy and I’m sure we’ll find a workable plan eventually.

Hi Danjul
Disagree to be honest. if this were true, Western Bulldogs would not really have much of a supporter base.
We haven't won a lot of finals. Yet the fanbase continues. Winning is a lot but it's not everything.

[Vred]

Sweet did nothing wrong last season and was never welcomed back. We may as well give him a long string of games as 1st Ruck, English moves back to Fwd/Pinch Ruck and that is where we were most dangerous last season IMHO. Why we bandaged up Stef like a Mummy and brought him into 2022 I'll never know. There are many free hit rucks from the off season running around at AFL level now, any would have been a logical choice, none of them is negligent.

We can't move English back to more FWD than ruck.
He had a cry/bitch/moan about it last season because he was spending more time forward than actually rucking to the point his manager has come out and said as much (he was unhappy and approached my other Melbourne clubs). English wants to be a number one ruck and currently has us over a barrel because he could chose to walk and we'd have no replacement.
Yet, he isn't a number one ruck, loses almost every contest his in, so what's the solution? Let him walk? I'm fine with that as long as we have a proper number one ruck lined up to take over.

We've needed two competent rucks on our list for as long as I can remember and yet here we are in 22' with well, one ? half of one? I don't know anymore.

[G-Mo77]

We can't move English back to more FWD than ruck.
He had a cry/bitch/moan about it last season because he was spending more time forward than actually rucking to the point his manager has come out and said as much (he was unhappy and approached my other Melbourne clubs). English wants to be a number one ruck and currently has us over a barrel because he could chose to walk and we'd have no replacement.
Yet, he isn't a number one ruck, loses almost every contest his in, so what's the solution? Let him walk? I'm fine with that as long as we have a proper number one ruck lined up to take over.

We've needed two competent rucks on our list for as long as I can remember and yet here we are in 22' with well, one ? half of one? I don't know anymore.

OK then if our plan is to play him #1 all season, which I'm fine with, why even bother with Martin who is a ruck and nothing else. Why resign him at all? There were many free hits in the off season and those rucks/bigs would have been wanting to come because of the opportunity. We passed on them all, all of them.

[GVGjr]

You raise a good point Vred
I'm more than OK with English as the first ruckman for us but he does need some support and the club needed to look adding more depth in the ruck position. The fact that English is also a decent forward should provide us with some options.

[bornadog]

English is working his way to being one of the best ruckman in the AFL. Ruck work is not just about tapping the ball to mids and then disappearing for the rest of the time? English's tap work has improved immensely this season, and last night had 21 taps to Nankervis' 26, however, 20 disposals, 8 marks to 12, and 3 he was the best of the two.

A second ruck is now our main issue.

[GVGjr]

English is working his way to being one of the best ruckman in the AFL. Ruck work is not just about tapping the ball to mids and then disappearing for the rest of the time? English's tap work has improved immensely this season, and last night had 21 taps to Nankervis' 26, however, 20 disposals, 8 marks to 12, and 3 he was the best of the two.

A second ruck is now our main issue.

I agree but it's the same issue we have had for a while and it isn't being addressed. Hannan, Bontempelli and Naughton aren't the answer.

[bornadog]

I agree but it's the same issue we have had for a while and it isn't being addressed. Hannan, Bontempelli and Naughton aren't the answer.

Forgetting should have, could have, who is your suggestion with the current list?

[westbulldog]

Now that Jordan Sweet is unfortunately unavailable due to concussion we will defer to Happy Days "Anyone who asks why Sweet isn’t playing isn’t a real head" who obviously has all the answers which we are not yet privvy to.

[SquirrelGrip]

Forgetting should have, could have, who is your suggestion with the current list?

I think the second ruck has to be Schache, just because our second ruck is only needed to ruck for maybe 10% of the game and at least he has versatility to do something else for the other 90%. None of the other options on our list (who are fit!) can do that.