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  1. #211
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    Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    I still think we are a chance to make the 8 but is it a level of complacency that embraces our club? Our recruiting in the off season would indicate we felt that we didn't need to cover Bruce or really strengthen in an area so I wonder what exactly drives these types of slumps?
    Especially considering the message in the off season was sustained success anything outside of finals is a massive failure.

  2. #212
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    Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

    According to MJP, re our list.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    I mostly agree with you but I don't think it is out of balance.

    Key Forwards:
    Ready: Bruce, Naughton, Schache
    Developing: Jamarra, Darcy

    Key Backs:
    Ready: Keath, Gardner, Cordy, O'Brien
    Developing: -

    Rucks:
    Ready: Martin, English
    Developing: Sweet

    We actually have enough players. The problem is we don't necessarily pick them.

    I get the MC concern with playing Sweet and English (or Martin and English) together because it costs us a rotation and with our zoning defense, the players are expected/needed to run (an awful lot). But at some point they just need to bit the bullet and select:

    2x Key forwards
    2x Key Defenders
    2x Rucks
    1x Utility Tall who can help wherever is needed.

    eg.
    Forwards: Naughton AND Schache
    Backs: Gardner AND Keath
    Rucks: English AND Sweet
    Utility: O'Brien

    I don't think it is that hard.
    Whether we have the right players is another matter
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  3. #213
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    Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Grantysghost View Post
    Especially considering the message in the off season was sustained success anything outside of finals is a massive failure.
    Did we judge the list incorrectly or fly a false message to meet our ambitions of a 50K membership base?
    At the end of the last season I was confident we had a top 4 list. At the end of the trade period I wasn't quite as confident as we didn't address our needs and the old adage of you are standing still in the AFL you're actually going backwards seems to have happened to us.

    I suspect the next 3 weeks after the bye will tell the story.
    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

  4. #214
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    Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

    I believe the issue is not in the list but in the coaching.

    Geelong were clearly better planned to counter our strength and our game plan just doesn't enhance our strength.

    The insistence on playing a swarming press that leaves no space for forwards is just not getting it done.

    Beveridge needs to adapt to make use of the talent of the list. He is outcoached way to often and Chris Scott does it every single time.
    Life is to be Enjoyed not Endured

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  6. #215
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    Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    Did we judge the list incorrectly or fly a false message to meet our ambitions of a 50K membership base?
    At the end of the last season I was confident we had a top 4 list. At the end of the trade period I wasn't quite as confident as we didn't address our needs and the old adage of you are standing still in the AFL you're actually going backwards seems to have happened to us.

    I suspect the next 3 weeks after the bye will tell the story.
    I thought we had a top 4 list to be honest. Why we can't sustain top 4 form is my question. Our best is undoubtedly in the best handful.
    I think the list holes are a big factor as you have alluded to.
    The game plan is also high risk high reward so throw in some inconsistent player efforts and injuries and it gets you behind where you should be.

    It's hard to comment on bringing players in to address need because I don't know what we tried to do. But as you've said someone like a Casboult or a Chol would've made sense.

    Even a guy like Callum Sinclair. No star and ageing but would've been useful for a year or two.

  7. #216
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    Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog Joe View Post
    I believe the issue is not in the list but in the coaching.

    Geelong were clearly better planned to counter our strength and our game plan just doesn't enhance our strength.

    The insistence on playing a swarming press that leaves no space for forwards is just not getting it done.

    Beveridge needs to adapt to make use of the talent of the list. He is outcoached way to often and Chris Scott does it every single time.
    You mean the game plan that got us into a Granny
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  8. #217
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    Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    You mean the game plan that got us into a Granny
    And how is that game plan going now?

    The game continues to evolve... have we evolved with it?

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  10. #218
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    Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Grantysghost View Post
    I thought we had a top 4 list to be honest. Why we can't sustain top 4 form is my question. Our best is undoubtedly in the best handful.
    I think the list holes are a big factor as you have alluded to.
    The game plan is also high risk high reward so throw in some inconsistent player efforts and injuries and it gets you behind where you should be.

    It's hard to comment on bringing players in to address need because I don't know what we tried to do. But as you've said someone like a Casboult or a Chol would've made sense.

    Even a guy like Callum Sinclair. No star and ageing but would've been useful for a year or two.
    Depth and structure are critical, if we have learned anything is that you can address midfield and smaller forward depth with some experienced state league types (Hayes, Cav, Scott and McNeil etc) but for some reason we choose not to with our taller players.
    Casboult or Sinclair could been used as experienced stop gap replacements. Chol would have passed all of BAD's WAH filters and can play a few positions.
    Our position was to accept that Bruce wouldn't be playing a sizeable part of the season, Easton Wood being replace by TOB and allowing for Young to move to Carlton.
    Perhaps we thought Marra was a 20 game player for us in 2022 but if so that was a risky assessment.
    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

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  12. #219
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    Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    You mean the game plan that got us into a Granny
    Perhaps we have played that card and haven't evolved it. Our performances would indicate that maybe a few clubs have been able to expose some of our gaps in the game plan.
    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

  13. #220
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    Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    You mean the game plan that got us into a Granny
    Yes
    I do mean the game plan that got us into the Granny, but also lead to a complete capitulation.

    We needed to improve and not fall back into situations that had us lose the last 3 roster games to inferior opponents forfeiting a top 2 finish.

    The coach obviously believes he knows best, but when you are replacing Will Hayes with Robbie McComb on your list, it is just moving deck chairs on the Titanic.

    We needed to find better navigation to avoid the Iceberg that was Melbourne, but we keep doing the same stuff and allow Iceberg Geelong to again dominate us when it matters.

    Better preparation with options when things don't go your way are the responsibilty of the coach.

    He may have won a flag, but he has now wasted 6 years of talent with his approach.
    When is he to be held accountable.
    Life is to be Enjoyed not Endured

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  15. #221
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    Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog Joe View Post
    Yes
    I do mean the game plan that got us into the Granny, but also lead to a complete capitulation.

    We needed to improve and not fall back into situations that had us lose the last 3 roster games to inferior opponents forfeiting a top 2 finish.

    The coach obviously believes he knows best, but when you are replacing Will Hayes with Robbie McComb on your list, it is just moving deck chairs on the Titanic.

    We needed to find better navigation to avoid the Iceberg that was Melbourne, but we keep doing the same stuff and allow Iceberg Geelong to again dominate us when it matters.

    Better preparation with options when things don't go your way are the responsibilty of the coach.

    He may have won a flag, but he has now wasted 6 years of talent with his approach.
    When is he to be held accountable.
    He just made a GF so I guess that's a fair performance indicator if you are judging his results? I know what you mean though and I'm as frustrated as you atm we should be making the top 4.

    I find it amazing he can basically decide not to perform some media tasks and his managers let him get away with it. If it's part of the job then he should be doing it and I'd hope Grant and Bains are not kowtowing to him in this regard. Be nice to have a job where you can say : "nah i don't like that part of it I wont do it" .....eg appearing on anything FOX.

    I'm a big Bevo fan as I've said, but we can't have results like the first half of this season.

  16. #222
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    Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    Depth and structure are critical, if we have learned anything is that you can address midfield and smaller forward depth with some experienced state league types (Hayes, Cav, Scott and McNeil etc) but for some reason we choose not to with our taller players.
    Casboult or Sinclair could been used as experienced stop gap replacements. Chol would have passed all of BAD's WAH filters and can play a few positions.
    Our position was to accept that Bruce wouldn't be playing a sizeable part of the season, Easton Wood being replace by TOB and allowing for Young to move to Carlton.
    Perhaps we thought Marra was a 20 game player for us in 2022 but if so that was a risky assessment.
    The problem is not who we haven’t got but rather what we are doing with what we have.

    The 5 year post premiership experiment led to the conclusion we are unbeatable when we have 3 tall forwards/ 2rucks .

    So we refuse to do it. (Except by accident). The closer we get to that structure the better we look.

    The selection team refuses to acknowledge reality.

    For example, look at the Adelaide game. Bont, Macrae and Treloar had season lowest number of kicks. Maybe the fact that Naughton also had season 2nd lowest number of kicks and Weightman was goalless was related. Midfielders jammed up trying to handball out of trouble, team in trouble, season at risk.

    Now look at the Collingwood game.

    Bont, Treloar, West, Naughton all had season best number of kicks. Libba and Smith had 2nd highest. Macrae and Dunkley had 3rd highest out of the first 11 games. (When I looked at the data)

    Naughton also had his highest number of marks (kicking 3:2), Bont had his 2nd highest number of marks and the team had the highest number of inside 50s.

    The Bulldogs genuinely looked like a top four proposition. And we had some significant players out.

    Same players, different results. Interesting.

    Anything to learn from all this? Something that might save our season from Port and Geelong?

    Nope, just sit back and watch a replay of 2017-2018 play out.

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  18. #223
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    Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Grantysghost View Post
    He just made a GF so I guess that's a fair performance indicator if you are judging his results? I know what you mean though and I'm as frustrated as you atm we should be making the top 4.

    I find it amazing he can basically decide not to perform some media tasks and his managers let him get away with it. If it's part of the job then he should be doing it and I'd hope Grant and Bains are not kowtowing to him in this regard. Be nice to have a job where you can say : "nah i don't like that part of it I wont do it" .....eg appearing on anything FOX.

    I'm a big Bevo fan as I've said, but we can't have results like the first half of this season.
    I have struggled with being a Bevo fan and have considered he should be out the door several times in the past 5 years.

    He continues to experiment with things and in 2019 and 2020 he basically gave up and reverted to a more normal position in the latter part of the year allowing us to finish strongly for elimination final losses.

    The list at his disposal should be sitting comfortably in finals contention, but poor losses to Carlton, Richmond and Adelaide as well as Port Adelaide have us likely to miss finals.

    I know it is possible for us to win the next 13 and be premiers, but not without a big improvement and it starts with the coach.
    Life is to be Enjoyed not Endured

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  20. #224
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    Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog Joe View Post
    Yes
    I do mean the game plan that got us into the Granny, but also lead to a complete capitulation.

    We needed to improve and not fall back into situations that had us lose the last 3 roster games to inferior opponents forfeiting a top 2 finish.

    The coach obviously believes he knows best, but when you are replacing Will Hayes with Robbie McComb on your list, it is just moving deck chairs on the Titanic.

    We needed to find better navigation to avoid the Iceberg that was Melbourne, but we keep doing the same stuff and allow Iceberg Geelong to again dominate us when it matters.

    Better preparation with options when things don't go your way are the responsibilty of the coach.

    He may have won a flag, but he has now wasted 6 years of talent with his approach.
    When is he to be held accountable.
    I am not sure of the wasting of talent. I never get that argument. Do we over rate our list? Yes we have a sprinkling of elite players but so do other teams. It is extremely difficult to win a premiership, thus winning one is a bloody good achievement. Since our premiership only 3 teams have won the flag - thus 15 haven’t. Some of those teams have bloody talented lists but like us also have weaknesses. Look at Geelong - haven’t won a flag since 2011 yet have Danger, Tomahawk, Stewart, Cameron on their list. Port Adelaide with Gray, Boak, Jonas, Vines have zilch. West Coast with JK, Gaff, Sheed, Shuey also the one. Like these teams we have out and out stars but to win a flag you need a squad of 26 to 30 players performing well over a period of time without injuries. What I am trying to say here is that it is not necessarily a waste of talent because we haven’t won more flags. Sure we all want more, but to have won a flag is an awesome achievement. I get what you are saying and it shows that we are hungry for more success. Maybe the fact that we have never had such talented players at our disposal makes it harder to cop.

    To be frank we have had a poor run with injuries over the last 12 months. This has clearly impacted our performance as well as some psychological scars and maybe some poor selections (both trade and game day) have contributed to our lack of success. In saying that I feel confident about the future, post 2022. We have some talent coming through we just need to make sure we draft for our needs. Still think we can snag a flag or two in Bonts window of opportunity.

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  22. #225
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    Re: Honest reflection and the path forward

    Quote Originally Posted by whythelongface View Post
    I am not sure of the wasting of talent. I never get that argument. Do we over rate our list? Yes we have a sprinkling of elite players but so do other teams. It is extremely difficult to win a premiership, thus winning one is a bloody good achievement. Since our premiership only 3 teams have won the flag - thus 15 haven’t. Some of those teams have bloody talented lists but like us also have weaknesses. Look at Geelong - haven’t won a flag since 2011 yet have Danger, Tomahawk, Stewart, Cameron on their list. Port Adelaide with Gray, Boak, Jonas, Vines have zilch. West Coast with JK, Gaff, Sheed, Shuey also the one. Like these teams we have out and out stars but to win a flag you need a squad of 26 to 30 players performing well over a period of time without injuries. What I am trying to say here is that it is not necessarily a waste of talent because we haven’t won more flags. Sure we all want more, but to have won a flag is an awesome achievement. I get what you are saying and it shows that we are hungry for more success. Maybe the fact that we have never had such talented players at our disposal makes it harder to cop.

    To be frank we have had a poor run with injuries over the last 12 months. This has clearly impacted our performance as well as some psychological scars and maybe some poor selections (both trade and game day) have contributed to our lack of success. In saying that I feel confident about the future, post 2022. We have some talent coming through we just need to make sure we draft for our needs. Still think we can snag a flag or two in Bonts window of opportunity.
    Good post, you have expressed the same as my thoughts.
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

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