Rory Lobb

[Scorlibo]

1/ Bruce is two years older than the start of 2021 and has suffered a serious injury in that time... It's much more unlikely than likely that he gets back to being a very competent AFL player.

You make a couple of fair points but I just don't see how that equates to counting him out. Re: injury, he fractured his leg for the Saints in 2018 before returning to form in 2019. He's old but not ancient. He's highly regarded internally, and he's shown the ability to turn things around season to season. I'm not saying he'll return to 2021 form, but if he stays fit I think he'll play the majority of games next year.

2/ That means you have faith in English being a 100 minute per game ruckman.... and based on previous performances it's hard to see that happening, especially against the more physical types where he is still getting rag-dolled.

How much ruck time are we realistically expecting Lobb to take away from English? Lobb will be a forward first and foremost. He might play a few more minutes compared to Cordy or Bruce, but it's not substantially different to the status quo.

English has been going at 80-85% centre bounce time. Darcy/Lobb split their time 77%/23% on the weekend.

I know we're all still mourning the loss, and English's performance was not great, but we can all agree that he had a great season, no? I wouldn't trade him for any other ruckman at this point. His tap work is still ordinary, although it's been steadily improving. His around the ground work was elite, especially his first 8 or so games. He's Luke Darcy not Scott Wynd and I think we just have to accept that and come up with solutions around the hitouts, as we have done this season to finish as the best clearance team.

[bornadog]

I know we're all still mourning the loss, and English's performance was not great, but we can all agree that he had a great season, no? I wouldn't trade him for any other ruckman at this point. His tap work is still ordinary, although it's been steadily improving. His around the ground work was elite, especially his first 8 or so games. He's Luke Darcy not Scott Wynd and I think we just have to accept that and come up with solutions around the hitouts, as we have done this season to finish as the best clearance team.

Couldn't agree more.

For modern ruckman, hitouts is not the only measure. Around the ground work is very important.

We are number one for Clearances including Stoppage Clr and centre clr and right up there with cont poss. Ruck is the least of our worries.

We have bigger issues with our defensive system and one on one in defence. Defenders are turning over the ball far too many times as well and they have cost us games eg Daniel v Adelaide, Richards on Saturday didn't help, and he did the same against GWS but lucky we won by 5 points.

[Sedat]

I know we're all still mourning the loss, and English's performance was not great, but we can all agree that he had a great season, no? I wouldn't trade him for any other ruckman at this point. His tap work is still ordinary, although it's been steadily improving. His around the ground work was elite, especially his first 8 or so games. He's Luke Darcy not Scott Wynd and I think we just have to accept that and come up with solutions around the hitouts, as we have done this season to finish as the best clearance team.

Huge fans of your posts but I respectfully disagree with all of the above. If your game does not stack in up September, what is the actual point of dominating against sub-par opponents? English has never dominated against quality opposition, either individual ruckmen or the collective team.

Repeating the same behaviours that resulted in calamitous fade-outs is not an option - it should not have been an option in 2022 but we did not heed the lessons that Melbourne ruthlessly taught us.

English doing 90% ruck time moving forward is not going to work. There is a 4 year sample size of consistent failure to get it done against the best teams and opposition ruckmen. It's not just an English/stoppage problem - we also need to find better balance in our midfield set-up so that we have some defensive integrity and aren't all hunting the ball like Melbourne's mids used to do before 2021 and Richmond did before 2017.

[bornadog]

English doing 90% ruck time moving forward is not going to work.

No one said he would do 90% if a Lobb comes in and he doesn't do that now. I would expect that ratio to be much closer to a 60/40, or 70/30.

It is not just finals you have to be good at, you need to get there via H&A. Both last year and this English started well but after the two concussions he seems to have lost some confidence. Hopefully next year he is injury free.

[GVGjr]

Just looking at the votes again and there is a high portion of members who have voted so far who think we just don't need him. The conversations are also started to be dominated more on English's value in the ruck.

The speculation in the media is very strong that it's a done deal with Lobb but things could change.

Are we happy enough to go into next season with maybe Bruce and Darcy providing English a chop out?

[bornadog]

Are we happy enough to go into next season with maybe Bruce and Darcy providing English a chop out?

That would be a big risk. If it is not Lobb, then we need someone else.

[GVGjr]

That would be a big risk. If it is not Lobb, then we need someone else.

Are you pretty much all-in on him BAD?

[bornadog]

Are you pretty much all-in on him BAD?

I have decided we need him. I have been on the fence, but I can't see alternatives and if he says he wants to come to us, then we go for it.

[bornadog]

Here is a comparison of English v Nankervis at the same age:

Player Statistics Comparison

Timothy English Name Toby Nankervis Western Bulldogs Team Richmond Tigers Forward, Ruck Position Ruck 85 Career Games 121 South Fremantle Origin North Launceston August 10, 1997 Date of Birth August 12, 1994 25yr 0mth Age Turned 25 in 2019 207cm Height 199cm 103kg Weight 102kg 2016 National Draft Last Drafted In 2013 National Draft Round 1, Pick #19 Last Draft Position Round 2, Pick #35 Western Bulldogs Last Drafted By Sydney Swans 2022 Stats for Season 2019 16 Games 12 10.2 Kicks 6.3 7.8 Handballs 6.6 18.1 Disposals 12.9 5.4 Marks 2.3 0.7 Goals 0.3 0.6 Behinds 0.2 2.6 Tackles 3.6 23.7 Hitouts 21.9 3.2 Inside 50s 1.8 0.2 Goal Assists 0.2 2.2 Frees For 0.9 1.1 Frees Against 1.8 8.4 Contested Possessions 6.4 9.6 Uncontested Possessions 6.3 13.4 Effective Disposals 7.5 74% Disposal Efficiency % 58.1% 3.1 Clangers 3.6 1.2 Contested Marks 0.2 0.9 Marks Inside 50 0.2 4.2 Clearances 2.8 1.8 Rebound 50s 0.4 3.1 One Percenters 3.0 0.5 Bounces 0 84.1 Time On Ground % 70.2 2.1 Centre Clearances 1.4 2.1 Stoppage Clearances 1.3 5.9 Score Involvements 3.2 281.7 Metres Gained 132.2 3.0 Turnovers 2.5 3.8 Intercepts 1.8 0.2 Tackles Inside 50 0.3

In all measures English is ahead including Hitouts, cont poss, centre clearances and stoppages.

[Scorlibo]

Huge fans of your posts but I respectfully disagree with all of the above. If your game does not stack in up September, what is the actual point of dominating against sub-par opponents? English has never dominated against quality opposition, either individual ruckmen or the collective team.

Repeating the same behaviours that resulted in calamitous fade-outs is not an option - it should not have been an option in 2022 but we did not heed the lessons that Melbourne ruthlessly taught us.

English doing 90% ruck time moving forward is not going to work. There is a 4 year sample size of consistent failure to get it done against the best teams and opposition ruckmen. It's not just an English/stoppage problem - we also need to find better balance in our midfield set-up so that we have some defensive integrity and aren't all hunting the ball like Melbourne's mids used to do before 2021 and Richmond did before 2017.

Not sure we'll find agreement on this one, but that's part of the fun...

Re: English melting vs quality opposition, without delving too far into the past, he broke even (I'd say) against Gawn and Darcy late in the season (judged to be 3rd BOG against Melbourne and 7th BOG against Fremantle in the WOOF player awards). In round 1 against Gawn, Tim had another good game winning 8 clearances (4th BOG in WOOF awards). Perhaps his very best games for the year came against more lowly opposition but that's true of most players.

[GVGjr]

I have decided we need him. I have been on the fence, but I can't see alternatives and if he says he wants to come to us, then we go for it.

OK, you appeared to be swinging away from him a couple of weeks ago.
I'm not sure he is a great fit for us but I haven't seen a suitable alternative yet.
If we can get him cheaply then it could be a good deal for us.

[DOG GOD]

Are we happy enough to go into next season with maybe Bruce and Darcy providing English a chop out?

If that is the case, then I’ll be 100% on the sack Bevo train. It would be complete incompetence to allow this to happen again.

[GVGjr]

If that is the case, then I’ll be 100% on the sack Bevo train. It would be complete incompetence to allow this to happen again.

There should be no sack Bevo train.

[DOG GOD]

There should be no sack Bevo train.

Well I’ll put my captains hat on if we (the club) don’t do anything this trade period to get someone. The ruck weakness is glaring, so let’s see the club DO SOMETHING. If we go into 2023 with English, Sweet, Bruce and Darcy it will be an absolute farce.

[1eyedog]

Here is a comparison of English v Nankervis at the same age:

Player Statistics Comparison

Timothy English Name Toby Nankervis Western Bulldogs Team Richmond Tigers Forward, Ruck Position Ruck 85 Career Games 121 South Fremantle Origin North Launceston August 10, 1997 Date of Birth August 12, 1994 25yr 0mth Age Turned 25 in 2019 207cm Height 199cm 103kg Weight 102kg 2016 National Draft Last Drafted In 2013 National Draft Round 1, Pick #19 Last Draft Position Round 2, Pick #35 Western Bulldogs Last Drafted By Sydney Swans 2022 Stats for Season 2019 16 Games 12 10.2 Kicks 6.3 7.8 Handballs 6.6 18.1 Disposals 12.9 5.4 Marks 2.3 0.7 Goals 0.3 0.6 Behinds 0.2 2.6 Tackles 3.6 23.7 Hitouts 21.9 3.2 Inside 50s 1.8 0.2 Goal Assists 0.2 2.2 Frees For 0.9 1.1 Frees Against 1.8 8.4 Contested Possessions 6.4 9.6 Uncontested Possessions 6.3 13.4 Effective Disposals 7.5 74% Disposal Efficiency % 58.1% 3.1 Clangers 3.6 1.2 Contested Marks 0.2 0.9 Marks Inside 50 0.2 4.2 Clearances 2.8 1.8 Rebound 50s 0.4 3.1 One Percenters 3.0 0.5 Bounces 0 84.1 Time On Ground % 70.2 2.1 Centre Clearances 1.4 2.1 Stoppage Clearances 1.3 5.9 Score Involvements 3.2 281.7 Metres Gained 132.2 3.0 Turnovers 2.5 3.8 Intercepts 1.8 0.2 Tackles Inside 50 0.3

In all measures English is ahead including Hitouts, cont poss, centre clearances and stoppages.

Tim pretty much tears it up against all comparable ruckman at 25 that I've looked at with the exception of Grundy and Sean Darcy.

We'll know what we really have in the next 1-2 years.