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  1. #451
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    Re: Hawthorn racism review

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanette54 View Post
    I totally agree, it's the cornerstone of our justice system, as opposed to the court of social media justice..
    Edit: Ah forget it I can't be bothered.
    "It's over. It's all over."

  2. #452
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    Re: Hawthorn racism review

    Quote Originally Posted by EasternWest View Post
    Edit: Ah forget it I can't be bothered.
    I assume you were going to point out that this isn't a judicial matter...

    It looks like we're all on the merry-go-round again.
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

  3. #453
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    Re: Hawthorn racism review

    Rita is vile

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  5. #454
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    Re: Hawthorn racism review

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancin' Douggy View Post
    Rita is vile
    Horrible, horrible woman
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

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  7. #455
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    Re: Hawthorn racism review

    To Rita's credit she's managed to confuse a lot of racists who hate immigration but agree and cheer along with the racist views of an immigrant.
    Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.

  8. #456
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    Re: Hawthorn racism review

    Quote Originally Posted by jeemak View Post
    To Rita's credit she's managed to confuse a lot of racists who hate immigration but agree and cheer along with the racist views of an immigrant.
    "One of the good ones"

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  10. #457
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    Re: Hawthorn racism review

    Quote Originally Posted by hujsh View Post
    "One of the good ones"
    Gets it.
    Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.

  11. #458
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    Re: Hawthorn racism review

    It's about time we consider the real victims, Clarkson and Fagan's mental health

    I find these two paragraphs contradictory

    ...the Clarkson and Fagan camps have become furious that neither person has given their version of events in two inquiries into the matter...
    AFL.com.au believes officials from North Melbourne and Brisbane, as well as other people connected to Clarkson and Fagan, have in the past month urged the AFL – via its independent panel – to urgently provide a forum for the two to present their cases as the matter has been taking a severe toll on their mental health.
    The independent panel said in a statement released to The Age that the three former Hawk officials had asked for documents from Hawthorn and would not be interviewed until they had the information they had requested. The First Nations players and their families have not agreed to those documents being released, the panel said.
    Are you frustrated you can't give your view or are you determined to try and release their private documents? Seems the latter matters more to you. Am I reading it wrong?

  12. #459
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    Re: Hawthorn racism review

    Quote Originally Posted by hujsh View Post
    It's about time we consider the real victims, Clarkson and Fagan's mental health

    I find these two paragraphs contradictory




    Are you frustrated you can't give your view or are you determined to try and release their private documents? Seems the latter matters more to you. Am I reading it wrong?
    I?m no defender of any of this, but I can understand they want to give their side. And I can understand they won?t until they know the precise allegations that these documents may or may not contain. I?m certain their legal advice would be say nothing until we know the precise allegation as without this information anything you say may inadvertently be wrong or appear to be wrong self-incrimination.

    I get the feeling this still has a very long way to play out and will get even worse. Then by technicality and wilful disregard, it will be swept under the rug and hope that no one notices.

    Not being political about it, I wonder if ‘The Voice’ can/needs to be consulted about Federal Funding/Laws of Federal Funding of indigenous elite sport?s competitions like the AFEL and hundreds of millions of dollars given to it. Could the referendum force the AFEL to do their actual duty or risk The Voice consulting government not to fund a system (AFEL) that treats indigenous people this way. I freely admit I don?t know how The Voice will operate on a technical basis, but the AFEL could soon be dealing with indigenous body it can?t bully or placate with empty gestures.
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

  13. #460
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    Re: Hawthorn racism review

    I can’t help thinking this would all have been handled so much better in a restorative justice model where the emphasis was on conversations and seeking understanding. Far more like “ when you said this to me, this is how I perceived it and what it meant to me” than what it has descended into, lawyers at 1000 paces and a strictly legalistic framework splitting hairs over every detail.

    Wouldn’t it have been so much better for everyone if the first steps were Fagan and Clarkson being willing to sit down and commit to listening and learning rather than this protracted and increasingly bitter and futile process. I mean 37000 documents being produced? What will they really tell us of the truth of what happened. The panel even has its own legal representation! Meanwhile with every new legal tactic that is unveiled “justice” recedes into the distance more and more each day.

    This process will have harmed absolutely everyone involved with an outcome that will satisfy nobody but will exacerbate the hurt and won’t even rescue the reputations of the coaches despite an outcome we have known will be the case right from the start. No matter what the findings everyone will be angry and aggrieved and nothing will have moved forward in a greater understanding between clubs and indigenous players about what history and family mean and the harms in attempting to trample over them.
    www.bulldogtragician.com A blog about being a lifelong fan of the Dogs and our quixotic attempt to replicate 1954. AND WE DID
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  15. #461
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    Re: Hawthorn racism review

    The ABC have been retreating from this story quicker than the Italians halfway through WW2. Their attitude to this is the most instructive - it is obvious that they now have grave doubts about the veracity of their own story and the allegations, as they have been bitten several times in recent history with other explosive stories that ended up being proven by the courts to be 100% baseless, resulting in hefty legal proceedings against them (of which the taxpayer footed the bill naturally, and of course nobody involved were held directly accountable in any way, and remarkably the taxpayer-funded employees involved in these costly and damaging screw-ups are still in generous and gainful employment today).

    IF the allegations are proven to be false, the ABC should honestly be wound up and shut down - the reporter should be sacked on the spot and held directly accountable, and so should the editors and legal team who green-lit the story. Getting something so spectacularly wrong that has caused total carnage for all involved is utterly reprehensible conduct, particularly from our public broadcaster and the supposed beacon of truth and honesty. Of course this will never happen but it absolutely should.

    There is no halfway here - either the accused are 100% cleared and exonerated, or (if the allegations are proven) they are kicked out of the game for good and the victims duly compensated. There should be no grubby weasel outcomes of convenience that give both sides something to hang their hat on - not for the AFEL, not for the club, not for the accused/accusers, and certainly not for the public broadcaster and the reporter in question.
    "Look at me mate. Look at me. I'm flyin'"

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  17. #462
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    Re: Hawthorn racism review

    Quote Originally Posted by The bulldog tragician View Post
    I can’t help thinking this would all have been handled so much better in a restorative justice model where the emphasis was on conversations and seeking understanding. Far more like “ when you said this to me, this is how I perceived it and what it meant to me” than what it has descended into, lawyers at 1000 paces and a strictly legalistic framework splitting hairs over every detail.

    Wouldn’t it have been so much better for everyone if the first steps were Fagan and Clarkson being willing to sit down and commit to listening and learning rather than this protracted and increasingly bitter and futile process. I mean 37000 documents being produced? What will they really tell us of the truth of what happened. The panel even has its own legal representation! Meanwhile with every new legal tactic that is unveiled “justice” recedes into the distance more and more each day.

    This process will have harmed absolutely everyone involved with an outcome that will satisfy nobody but will exacerbate the hurt and won’t even rescue the reputations of the coaches despite an outcome we have known will be the case right from the start. No matter what the findings everyone will be angry and aggrieved and nothing will have moved forward in a greater understanding between clubs and indigenous players about what history and family mean and the harms in attempting to trample over them.
    Bolded bits. Doesn't that assume that Clarkson, Fagan and/or Burt acted as alleged by the complainants and as appears in Egan's Report ? Both Clarkson and Fagan have denied wrongdoing. Once the issue got into the public arena, the adversarial approach became inevitable.

  18. #463
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    Re: Hawthorn racism review

    Quote Originally Posted by Sedat View Post
    The ABC have been retreating from this story quicker than the Italians halfway through WW2. Their attitude to this is the most instructive - it is obvious that they now have grave doubts about the veracity of their own story and the allegations, as they have been bitten several times in recent history with other explosive stories that ended up being proven by the courts to be 100% baseless, resulting in hefty legal proceedings against them (of which the taxpayer footed the bill naturally, and of course nobody involved were held directly accountable in any way, and remarkably the taxpayer-funded employees involved in these costly and damaging screw-ups are still in generous and gainful employment today).

    IF the allegations are proven to be false, the ABC should honestly be wound up and shut down - the reporter should be sacked on the spot and held directly accountable, and so should the editors and legal team who green-lit the story. Getting something so spectacularly wrong that has caused total carnage for all involved is utterly reprehensible conduct, particularly from our public broadcaster and the supposed beacon of truth and honesty. Of course this will never happen but it absolutely should.

    There is no halfway here - either the accused are 100% cleared and exonerated, or (if the allegations are proven) they are kicked out of the game for good and the victims duly compensated. There should be no grubby weasel outcomes of convenience that give both sides something to hang their hat on - not for the AFEL, not for the club, not for the accused/accusers, and certainly not for the public broadcaster and the reporter in question.
    I mean, it's the AFL, of course either the coaches will be cleared or the bolded will happen.

    Can I ask why you think the story is baseless now? Because the ABC aren't covering it further? I'm not sure I follow your logic TBH.

  19. #464
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    Re: Hawthorn racism review

    Quote Originally Posted by hujsh View Post
    I mean, it's the AFL, of course either the coaches will be cleared or the bolded will happen.
    I suspect you are 100% right but it just cannot be an outcome of convenience - the allegations are so horrific and they need to be properly and clinically examined in the appropriate forum for the good of the game and everybody involved. And there has to be strong ramifications for everyone accused if the allegation are proven (and likewise for those who brought the allegations to light if they are proven not to have materialised).

    Quote Originally Posted by hujsh View Post
    Can I ask why you think the story is baseless now? Because the ABC aren't covering it further? I'm not sure I follow your logic TBH.
    I don't think it is baseless - I have no opinion one way or the other on veracity or otherwise of the story, and am waiting for the allegations to be proven or otherwise through the appropriate forum. I am simply judging the ABC on their deafening silence, when they went chest puffed out and all guns blazing early in the life-cycle of the story. If you recall a few weeks in they were still going hard and publicly attacked Sonja Hood with strong allegations, and then very swiftly issued a full public retraction of those allegations at the threat of legal action - since then they have completely gone AWOL. It says to me they now have no faith at all in their own story, a repeated pattern of behaviour they have much previous form in unfortunately.
    "Look at me mate. Look at me. I'm flyin'"

  20. #465
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    Re: Hawthorn racism review

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogtragic View Post
    I?m no defender of any of this, but I can understand they want to give their side. And I can understand they won?t until they know the precise allegations that these documents may or may not contain. I?m certain their legal advice would be say nothing until we know the precise allegation as without this information anything you say may inadvertently be wrong or appear to be wrong self-incrimination.

    I get the feeling this still has a very long way to play out and will get even worse. Then by technicality and wilful disregard, it will be swept under the rug and hope that no one notices.

    Not being political about it, I wonder if ?The Voice? can/needs to be consulted about Federal Funding/Laws of Federal Funding of indigenous elite sport?s competitions like the AFEL and hundreds of millions of dollars given to it. Could the referendum force the AFEL to do their actual duty or risk The Voice consulting government not to fund a system (AFEL) that treats indigenous people this way. I freely admit I don?t know how The Voice will operate on a technical basis, but the AFEL could soon be dealing with indigenous body it can?t bully or placate with empty gestures.
    My gut feel (and just that nothing else) is that they're demanding these documents be released
    a) as a way to avoid having to actually give their account
    or
    b) because something private is in one or some of these files that they either don't want made public or will be used to smear the victims.

    That's obviously just speculation though.

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