Hawthorn racism review

[Jeanette54]

It's pretty clear they aren't innocent

You know that ? Without hearing one word of their defense, without the accusers' back stories and accusations being examined and/or tested ?

Hopefully you are never appointed to do jury duty.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

You know that ? Without hearing one word of their defense, without the accusers' back stories and accusations being examined and/or tested ?

Hopefully you are never appointed to do jury duty.

I agree Jeanette. We don't want to turn into a society that convicts on accusations. There are far too many horrible examples of such.

I fully suspect both Fagan and Clarkson have done wrong here but both are still entitled to a defence and investigation into the facts.

I also think the AFL have handled this extremely poorly and that if Fagan and Clarkson are found guilty, their punishment should be severe. On top of the crime comitted, their denial and complete lack of care/commitment to their standing down has been appalling.

[Jeanette54]

I also think the AFL have handled this extremely poorly and that if Fagan and Clarkson are found guilty, their punishment should be severe. .

Totally agree with you there.

[hujsh]

You know that ?Without hearing one word of their defense, without the accusers' back stories and accusations being examined and/or tested ?

This is not a criminal case. With multiple accusations, an assistant coach witness confirming their allegations and no prospect of legal ramifications there is plenty of reason to conclude they should not be coaching at AFL level. Their defence? They 'deny wrongdoing'. They can't even claim that the allegations are untrue, just that they've done nothing wrong. The only other defence is that they weren't given an opportunity to put their side of the story forward (refuted by the journalist) and that the story being public means they won't get a 'fair go'. I'm 90% sure they did what they were accused of which isn't enough to throw them in jail but is enough to condemn them to making a very comfortable living speaking at corporate events about building a successful culture (and none involved will see the irony)

Hopefully you are never appointed to do jury duty.

I'd say the same of you. There's a time to exercise caution (eg maybe think twice before throwing every Aboriginal kid in jail Aus courts) but this aint it chief. This is a 'balance of probabilities' type deal and there has been nothing done to swing that balance towards the accused at all. At the very minimum you stand them down until the matter is completely investigated by non AFL stooges.

I'll say again. If you want to defend these guys at least make a case. Offer something aside from 'presumption of innocence' because this isn't a court case. This is a forum where we discuss football topics. If we can't use our brains and make a judgement based on the evidence given because 'well they haven't been PROVEN guilty yet' then we may as well lock the thread and only allow updates to be posted because the evidence given is about as cut and dry as you can get unless you think there's a realistic possibility the accusers are lying. In which case please explain why.

[EasternWest]

This is not a criminal case. With multiple accusations, an assistant coach witness confirming their allegations and no prospect of legal ramifications there is plenty of reason to conclude they should not be coaching at AFL level. Their defence? They 'deny wrongdoing'. They can't even claim that the allegations are untrue, just that they've done nothing wrong. The only other defence is that they weren't given an opportunity to put their side of the story forward (refuted by the journalist) and that the story being public means they won't get a 'fair go'. I'm 90% sure they did what they were accused of which isn't enough to throw them in jail but is enough to condemn them to making a very comfortable living speaking at corporate events about building a successful culture (and none involved will see the irony)



I'd say the same of you. There's a time to exercise caution (eg maybe think twice before throwing every Aboriginal kid in jail Aus courts) but this aint it chief. This is a 'balance of probabilities' type deal and there has been nothing done to swing that balance towards the accused at all. At the very minimum you stand them down until the matter is completely investigated by non AFL stooges.

I'll say again. If you want to defend these guys at least make a case. Offer something aside from 'presumption of innocence' because this isn't a court case. This is a forum where we discuss football topics. If we can't use our brains and make a judgement based on the evidence given because 'well they haven't been PROVEN guilty yet' then we may as well lock the thread and only allow updates to be posted because the evidence given is about as cut and dry as you can get unless you think there's a realistic possibility the accusers are lying. In which case please explain why.

I respect your valiant efforts and temperance, hujsh.

[Jeanette54]

I'll say again. If you want to defend these guys at least make a case. (chomp)

Unless you think there's a realistic possibility the accusers are lying. In which case please explain why.

First item, I have not defended them, just defended the possibility they may be innocent of the conduct they have been accused of.

Secondly, I do not judge their accusations. Just point out, they are at this point of time, untested.

[Swoop]

First item, I have not defended them, just defended the possibility they may be innocent of the conduct they have been accused of.

Secondly, I do not judge their accusations. Just point out, they are at this point of time, untested.

I understand your argument Jeanette and you do make a valid point with regards to those in question being absolved of any guilt.

My concern with this process is there's no incentive for the victims to actually participate in the process.

A number of these families have been living their normal lives. It was the Hawthorn investigation that approached them, not the other way around. They told their story and in reflection probably realised that a number of these 'it's best for your footy' arguments crossed the line.

Now the report comes out, there's a lot of media attention and those in question are key figures within the AFL community. Consequently, they come out and vehemently deny the allegations. They hire the best lawyers in the business and all of a sudden this seems like a battle you're not sure is worth fighting.

On top of that, a number of players such as Hodge come out and release public statements talking about what a great person Clarkson is and how he never witnessed anything like that. Others like Dinkley, Zorko and Neale have also brushed off the comments with a simple 'should be right' and 'nothing to see here'

Finally the AFL CEO in Gill publicly commends Clarkson and Fagan in how they've conducted themselves throughout the process when it's been quite clear they never really stood down from anything.

So if I'm the player in question, I'm asking myself, do I really want to go through all this? Lawyers, media and the public passing judgements and forming opinions on every aspect of my life? No thanks, this isn't worth it, especially when I can predict the outcome already.

The issue isn't about anyone's presumed innocence or guilt, rather that no matter what actually happened, nothing will actually come of any of this.

[Twodogs]

Where does something like pressuring a teenage girl to have an abortion sit? Pressure that says your boyfriends career may be on the line? Is it blackmail of sorts? Not sure if there is a law broken or not, but certainly it is not on.

Long story short is I'm not sure but because abortion is a legal procedure I would be surprised if a law has been broken.

In my opinion it's a morally repugnant position to put someone in but there is probably paperwork signed by the player's partner saying she agrees with the medical procedure taking place or the surgeon wouldn't have gone ahead with it.

[jeemak]

First item, I have not defended them, just defended the possibility they may be innocent of the conduct they have been accused of.

Secondly, I do not judge their accusations. Just point out, they are at this point of time, untested.

They're as tested as well as they're likely to be. Which is, an independent investigator was appointed by a club and they were given an opportunity to explain their experiences. The independent investigator judged their accounts as reasonable, reliable and probable.

Those accounts were then tested by an investigative journalist who then ensured sufficient probity and oversight of the allegations was evident prior to publishing in a highly public forum via a highly reputable publication.

It's as far as you can go, literally, unless those making allegations were prepared to enter a civil complaint and take it to court. For all intents and purposes the allegations have been tested as far as they can be before they get to the courts.

As for those who have been accused, it does suck for them and it is hurting their reputations. But, check just about every chat on social media and there's nothing but sympathy for them and how hard this must be on their careers. They've had the head of the AFL come out and commend them for not even standing down beyond their likely minimum requirement of football activity for this time of year. What have those who made the allegations received? Accusations of cowardice for not fessing up their true identities and racist trolling. Why would they even bother?

[hujsh]

First item, I have not defended them, just defended the possibility they may be innocent of the conduct they have been accused of.

Secondly, I do not judge their accusations. Just point out, they are at this point of time, untested.

Yet as far as I can tell your only contribution to the topic has been to insist they should be assumed innocent. Given THEY have offered no defence and the allegations seem very credible and backed up by a witness I don't understand why anyone would choose to die on this hill. There's enough here to at least stand them down. That they're returning to coaching before even the sham investigation is done shows just how much contempt the AFL has for the victims and the Aboriginal communities at large.

Even if all you're doing is 'defending the possibility of them being innocent' you are also accusing the victims of lying are you not? What basis do you have to do that?

[bulldogtragic]

If we being overly technical, yes, innocent until proven guilty and everyone can defend themselves. But the test isn’t ‘reasonable doubt’ it’s the much lower civil threshold of on ‘the balance of probabilities’. So:

“Balance of probability requires reasonable satisfaction that the facts as presented are probably correct and occurred as stated.”

The allegations have in fact been tested by an independent third party. The independent third party was satisfied on the applicable standard above were correct and occurred as stated. To rebut their assessment, that the ‘on the balance of probabilities’ threshold has not been correctly concluded there necessarily needs evidence a reasonable person could not make that conclusion.

In blunt terms, their needs to be new evidence that the players and family members are lying or otherwise not reliable. There needs to be new evidence that counteracts the emails, calls, records of the AFLPA, medical records, police records and the other contemporaneous evidence that supports many direct witnesses and independent witness evidence by an assistant coach. I’m happy to hear what this new evidence is.

While not suggested, an AFEL investigation is not the ultimate jurisdiction to test whether allegations are in fact true. This same AFEL basically threw out the doping case against Essendon made by the independent ASADA investigation with WADA. The Court of Abritration for Sport and WorkSafe drew different conclusions, using the same threshold of ‘balance of probabilities’. An AFEL investigation whatever it concludes doesn’t mean in and of itself their findings are the truth. Is their an appeal right for the ex-players?

So what independent investigation or inquiry, other than the one already conducted, will be sufficient to determine what happened? Independent Inquiry by a former judge maybe?

[bornadog]

So what independent investigation or inquiry, other than the one already conducted, will be sufficient to determine what happened? Independent Inquiry by a former judge maybe?

That review was into the treatment of indigenous players at Hawthorn and only interviewed the indigenous players.
Not saying or accusing anyone, just writing what the review did.

[bulldogtragic]

That review was into the treatment of indigenous players at Hawthorn and only interviewed the indigenous players.
Not saying or accusing anyone, just writing what the review did.

I appreciate the coaches get a right of reply to the allegations as a principle of natural justice (which is not negotiable). But it appears the review went way passed only interviewing players (ie ‘he said, he said’ claims). Family were interviewed, at least one assistant coach was also interviewed, it appears the AFLPA had some involvement, and they found contemporaneous documentary evidence and made copies of same for their report. I think the report is very accusatory by its very nature.

I would think any independent third party reporting on such matters would necessarily need to test the veracity of the claims and not merely parrot untested claims. Which it appears they did in finding corroborative evidence of the claims and ‘similar fact’ evidence. With the multi-source evidence reported I think it’s a fair assessment to say a reasonable person could accept what is alleged is more probable to have occurred than not.

I’m open to hearing specific rebuttals, but they’ve not been made to date. Until such time as the current evidence is directly counteracted to me, then the report findings (and it’s underpinning evidence) are such that ‘balance of probability’ threshold has been met owing to the multiple direct witness statements (if ‘similar fact’) by players, family and coach/es (who accused the coaches of being “the Russian mafia”) and the health records plus the other contemporaneous evidence uncovered (that includes independent verification). This is a very strong case. I hope the substantive claims are examined, but I fear they will not be and it will move into a legal sideshow.

In effect, this will now be heard in the ‘court of public opinion’. As a juror, I’m satisfied the case has been made to need to hear and assess a defence to same. I’m absolutely open to accepting a believable defence or evidence as to why the allegations are in any way erroneous. But if at this point the accused wish to remain silent as is their absolute right or try to argue legal technicalities in the face of a strong prima facie case, as a juror I’m left with a mountain of corroborative evidence with no rebuttal of same.

To jump to the end, this will all go nowhere and make things worse. I think the legal competence in pursuing the lines or arguments will be enough to bring this into the ground. A particular second response was brilliantly crafted by a very talented (presumably QC/KC) and lays out how this will proceed. That’s the system, so we have to accept it. I think most would’ve preferred a more restorative justice process to learn and heal, then use legal technicalities. But it is what it is.

I think everyone needs to have an open mind to what has happened and to encourage a meaningful rebuttal, and acknowledge the coaches and club have a right to a reply and defence. I also think the mountain of strong evidence is such that to forsake it isn’t intellectually honest as the facts are now known. Moreover, I think almost everyone knows this is going to go nowhere by the AFEL is done (see Essendon investigation) so we are all wasting time and energy discussing the merits of a ‘dead end’ outcome. I guess from different perspectives we care about justice and truth in different senses. But we will soon all get no truth and no justice.

[GVGjr]

Thanks for providing the clarity BT.

[Topdog]

story is blocked by Herald Sun but one of the partners has apparently released a statement saying they wont participate in the "official" review.