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  1. #1
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    I've been looking at our Salary Cap / Total Player Payments.

    I've been digging up as much information and detail on our TPP for my own interest, and thought i'd share it if anyone was/is interested in this stuff.....


    Salary Capp/Total Player Payments Space Opened:


    Dunkley - $3,250,000

    Note: across 2023-22027 - 5 years x $650,000 offered, and rejected. This leaves quite a great cap space for us.


    Hunter - $800,000

    Note: 2023 and 2024 - 2 years x around $700,000. In 2021 his contact was about 'only' $625,000 reportedly in an article I found so i'll use this lower number to keep it more conservative. Assuming we paid about 1/3 his contact: $1,250,000 less $450,000 = $800,000. Sure we are giving Melbourne some cash, but we are freeing up a heap too. Hopefully we've given up less than $225,000 a season. But even if we have, that's still a big net gain.


    Keath - $500,000 (if retired *and* the trigger contract extension was at the same salary automatically)

    Note: At the time Mark Ricciuto said the Bulldogs offer was "more than double what he was on at Adelaide". That was rumoured to be WBFC paying about $500,000 to $550,000 to outbid St Kilda and Hawthorn at the time. Will be 32 coming into 2024 in his last year on contract.


    Bruce - $500,000 (if retired) or perhaps $100,000+ if a reduced extension offered

    Note: The rumour was that signing on was in the vacinity of $500,000 to $550,000 a season. My recollection he was back-ended at St Kilda to around $600,000 a season. Will be 32 in mid 2024 in his last year on contract.


    Crozier - $500,000 (if delisted)

    Note: At the time it was rumoured it was fight between St Kilda and WBFC to get him out of Fremantle, and ended up being a price Freo couldn't match and hence why it was a very cheap trade cost. The rumour was $500,000 or slightly more to get it across the line. Just 15 games out of a possible 49 games (30%) across the last two seasons. Now coming into his last year of contract.


    Other Trades/FA/Delistings from 2023 after accoutning for new salaries - $800,000:

    Plus: Wallis, Martin, Butler, Cordy, Schache (was on about $330,000 alone), Parker

    Note: The 'average' AFEL salary in 2021 was $372,224. Less the rookie contracts for draftees (combined $295,000 based on 2021 salary rates), and i'm assuming basic wages for Sweet, Khamis upon upgrading and for Baker taking Sweet's rookie list spot. My guess is the net effect is moving on (in additon to Hunter and Dunkley) mature, previously regular AFEL players players like Wallis, Schache, Cordy and Martin with the two kids saves us overall a ball park $8000,000.

    The *assumption* is Schache's $330,000 former wage covers the new draftee salaries of $295,000 and some. Then Parker for Baker on the RL. Butler and Schache's extra for Sweet. Sweet's RL wage for the other SSP. Then Wallis, Martin and Cordy *if* only on $330,000 averaged each (and well under the AFEL average salary of $372,224), less say something like nearly $200,000 Khamis. Leaves a net saving of ballpark $800,000 for all the list management, in and out, above Dunkley and Hunter.



    Walk around money:

    Duryea - a couple/few hundred thousand. Will be 33 at the start of 2024, his last year of contract.

    Hannan - a couple/hundred thousand. Would want to play more than 7 games as per 2022, coming into a contract year.


    *Assuming no other trades out



    Math time:

    So assuming the $650,000 on Dunkley and $400,000 on Hunter is either 'salary cap banked' and rolled over into subsequent years, or paid out to other player early and thus opened up for 2024 onwards (restructuring). That means for 2024 that there's $2,100,000 ready to redeployed on just these two former contracts. The other 2023 delistings bring that up $2,900,000+.

    Say one of Keath, Crozier and Bruce retires ($500,000) and the other two extend a one year deal but with say $100,000 pay reductions for 2024. That opens up another $700,000 in salary savings for 2024. (Even if they all stay, they fall away the following year freeing up the cap in any event and I say all as I just don't see paying Crozier as a priority)

    Duryea retires next year, and Hannan takes a pay cut if he's extended into 2024. Say $300,000+ here.

    That opens up $4,100,000+ (with cap banking and/or cap restructuring) for 2024, and the balance of the rejected Dunkley contract of $650,000 for 2025, 2026 and 2027. So another $1,950,000 longer and in addition to the $3,900,000+. = $5,850,000+ over the next five years



    So to say we are flush with cash is an understatement.

    In an aggressive trade strategy next year, say drafting our First Rounder, then going hard after a gun midfielder with Brisbane's First Rounder and our Future First, and a gun Free Agent. As i've said in other threads, if it can be two top mids and a top KPD i'd be stoked.

    Say the two new guns/very good players are on a combined $1,400,000 for 5 years. That's $7,000,000 that needs to be found to cover the wages over the life of the contracts. So reduced immediately by the $3,900,000+ in contract savings, and the $1,950,000 in the run off from Dunkley rejecting us. That's bringing down the cost of acquiring two gun players to about $1,150,000 over 5 years. Or just $230,000 a season. Which with salary cap increases may erase any actual deficit.

    So we can afford to try to go buy some seriously good players and draft some too. If we can convince them to join us.


    Now, some will be thinking 'we need to re-sign all our guns' though. As it happens, I found a thread today with player contracts. Who knew right? The main ones are in 2024 in English, Smith, Darcy, Naughton and Marra. Naughton and English are already in our top 5 for pay, so we won't need an insane amount more to keep them, but yes more I agree we will be paying more. But we should also comfortably have the cash to secure all of English, Smith, Darcy, Naughton and Marra to longer term deals.

    How we will pay them to stay, a part from onfield success, is the balance of all Bruce, Keath and Crozier going. That opens up by 2024 the balance of $800,000. I can't see JJ being extended beyond 2024, Jones will have done his first two years and we'll have a good read on his body and cost to keep him if he triggers his third year (can't see him in 2026 so a saving at the end of 2023 at the latest). While guys like Hannan and O'Brien will need to regular senior players by 2024 and Tom Liberatore would be 33 heading into 2025 and may not make it passed 2024 with the way he plays. Will Lobb being playing as a 34yo in 2026? If not, there's going to be another bigger salary saving at the end of 2025. If so, I can't see him being on top dollar. Plus as more money comes into the AFEL, the players will get more via the TPP increasing too.

    Presumably some players will request trades in the next season or two as well. That's life.

    Treloar, Bonts, Lobb, Weightman, Daniel, Dale and Macrae are locked away long term already. With the expected English, Smith, Darcy, Naughton and Marra too. Plus the trade/free agent guns.

    If we can do this by the end of 2023, then the dream is that when Tasmania go out trying to poach uncontracted gun players that our 'must retain' players are already going nowhere.


    I'm also very, very confident (in my educated guess) that we are not near 100% of the cap either. So there's still spare space in my opinion to play with to continue to top up younger player contracts to keep them too. The reality is some players will request trades or take free agency no matter what (Hamling, Adams, Dahl, Dunkley, Cordy etc. etc. - or retire early Redpath, Biggs, Cloke, Wood etc.) so there will be some attrition in our players no matter what, and thus some additional savings in our cap.

    The list structure of having the extra two rookie list spots saves us about $10,000 a year too. Moreover though, the standard rookie list contract (last time I read the AFEL rules/constitution) isn't included in the salary cap/TPP either. (I just checked again, Rule 10.11 "Payments to Rookie Players Outside Total Player Payments" - *if it's still currently in effect as it appears*). So further cost savings to our salary cap/TPP are here. Along with generous allowance for 'Additional Services Agreements' to players licensing their images for commercial use paid outside the cap worth circa $1,000,000, which we are no doubt using to the full extent with our bigger name players.

    From there, onfield success is the thing that needs to keep the players at WO. Like Hawthorn, Geelong and Richmond, at some point if you want to have a shit-ton of success, then players need to re-sign at reasonable contracts to accomodate retention and acquisition of new players. Onfield success, is the key. It's not a huge leap of faith to suggest that this list, coaches right, selected right, and kept healthy and motivated to succeed will have that success, have the good Friday and Saturday night games, play finals and win finals. Remembering, (before the pandemic belt tightening from the AFEL) winning the GF was a financial windfall of $1,200,000 and losing was $660,000 (as our players from 2016 and 2021 would know well). So there's potentially more cash on top of your salary, and on top of the club's salary cap/TPP if you climb the mountain.


    But as I was digging through the publicly available data on salaries for my own interest, I thought i'd let you know what I found and my read of things for those of you interested in this stuff. It's just 'ball park', but it's the best I can dig up online. Even 'ball park', my expectations on Sam Power over the next 12 months are huge. He has millions and millions spare to spend on retention of guns before Tasmania FC becomes a thing, plus millions and millions for securing new guns and up to three first rounders to trade (2023 x 2, 2024 F1) although i'm up for trading one in 2023 and the 2024 F1 (like say for a player of the quality of the Taranto trade structure) and using one First Rounder pick next year. Sam Power needs to convince guns to bypass Geelong, Carlton and Richmond and come to us. Watch this space I hope....

    No excuses for the players, no excuses for Bevo and no excuses for Sam Power. There is simply more premierships in the near term from where we are right now.
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

  2. #2
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    Re: I've been looking at our Salary Cap / Total Player Payments.

    Nice work, although it is very hard to work out TPPs especially given indexations over years past 2024 are not set in stone.

    My reading is we offered an extra year to both Lobb and Jones to 'smooth out' their contracts and given players we were connected to last trade period (incl. Sam Collins who would be on big coin at GCS) we certainly have the cap space and pick next year to make a play for someone.

    Two (hopefully late) first rounders.... and Finn Callaghan is OOC at GWS. Can play outside or inside mid, 192cm 19 year old mid who just looks like he'll be a star. A tall Josh Kelly type. I have zero faith that Treloar will be a week in, week out proposition beyond this year (soft tissue).

    Miles Bergmann was looking at a return to Victoria as well last trade period, we did rate him in his draft year and he can play forward or wing. I'd imagine both our first rounders as being late ones may be required to get that deal done but it would give us a 10 year player and genuine outside capacity.

    Kai Lohmann is OOC too and we'd love to get one back on Brisbane.

    There may be a tall young KPD we are looking at too - Butts is OOC at the end of 2023 who would be our first target I'd imagine.
    Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers

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  4. #3
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    Re: I've been looking at our Salary Cap / Total Player Payments.

    With so many picks and so much cash it’s like Christmas if we can pull them in. I like Bergman if his development has continued. We were into Lohmann. But next year if he remains OOC, doesn’t have a blinder of a season, and wanted to us then Brisbane’s F2 & a F4 might just be enough. Which would be looking like good Dunkley compo: Clarke, Lohmann & F1.

    With defence now being the ‘old mens club’, this is going to be really interesting to see in time who we’ve identified to target. Is it a FA like McKay or Himmelberg, or a value pick up like Menegola, or a more ambitious trade idea?

    Can you recall a time we’ve had so much trade capital and salary cap going into a season? It’s a nice position to be in.
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

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    Re: I've been looking at our Salary Cap / Total Player Payments.

    Bergman and Callaghan are the two young mids that I am most interested in that are gettable. We should also consider a younger KPD who can slot into the best 22 who is roughly around 25, not necessarily elite but one who can come in and do his job.

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    Re: I've been looking at our Salary Cap / Total Player Payments.

    This is a brilliant post. I don't really have much to say except - Bravo! So good having you here BT and if I don't respond enough to your threads it's not because I don't appreciate the effort you put in/your thought process.
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

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  10. #6
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    Re: I've been looking at our Salary Cap / Total Player Payments.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    This is a brilliant post. I don't really have much to say except - Bravo! So good having you here BT and if I don't respond enough to your threads it's not because I don't appreciate the effort you put in/your thought process.
    Is that the same reason you don't respond to mine?

  11. #7
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    Re: I've been looking at our Salary Cap / Total Player Payments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grantysghost View Post
    Is that the same reason you don't respond to mine?
    LOL.

    Um - Of course it is.

    There are some posts I guess - like the OP here from BT - that I read and I can see how much effort has gone into it. But I feel bad 'cos I don't really have much to contribute to the conversation...obviously this thread should be a good conversation starter but sometimes there is so much to take in and it is so well thought out that it is a bit of a conversation finisher as well.

    Like - I read it. I like it. I think that I should say 'something' but I just don't have much (aka anything) to add.

    I mean - is there any point saying 'We have money - we should make Sam Taylor an offer he can't refuse?'...'cos it sort of feels redundant after reading the post.

    Anyway - I appreciate you BT. And of course I appreciate you GG.
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

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  13. #8
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    Re: I've been looking at our Salary Cap / Total Player Payments.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    LOL.

    Um - Of course it is.

    There are some posts I guess - like the OP here from BT - that I read and I can see how much effort has gone into it. But I feel bad 'cos I don't really have much to contribute to the conversation...obviously this thread should be a good conversation starter but sometimes there is so much to take in and it is so well thought out that it is a bit of a conversation finisher as well.

    Like - I read it. I like it. I think that I should say 'something' but I just don't have much (aka anything) to add.

    I mean - is there any point saying 'We have money - we should make Sam Taylor an offer he can't refuse?'...'cos it sort of feels redundant after reading the post.

    Anyway - I appreciate you BT. And of course I appreciate you GG.
    Haha. I agree. Sometimes I'm so overwhelmed by the amount of work and detail BT puts in I feel like there's no where to respond. It's already perfect!

    I just passed 10k posts, I was thinking mein gott have I made others suffer for that long!

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    Re: I've been looking at our Salary Cap / Total Player Payments.

    You're the best BT, great read and thought starter. We should be able to chase some players.

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  16. #10
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    Re: I've been looking at our Salary Cap / Total Player Payments.

    Love the OP but at the end of the day there's a lot of assumptions. Maybe we jettisoned Hunter to avoid exceeding the cap? Maybe we didn't try harder $$$wise to retain Dunkley for a similar reason. Maybe some of our players are on much higher contracts than we are aware of.
    Officially on the Bus-wagon

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    Re: I've been looking at our Salary Cap / Total Player Payments.

    Quote Originally Posted by F'scary View Post
    Love the OP but at the end of the day there's a lot of assumptions. Maybe we jettisoned Hunter to avoid exceeding the cap? Maybe we didn't try harder $$$wise to retain Dunkley for a similar reason. Maybe some of our players are on much higher contracts than we are aware of.
    I can safely say while those are valid questions. Our TPP is not the reasons why either left. There’s no way we we’re very close (let alone exceeding) to the cap with both of them staying. Dunkley got more cash and wanted out. It seems Hunter could’ve been going one way or another. This was the option that cost the least. Paying part of his salary for a third rounder wouldn’t make much sense. To get rid of both Dunkley & Hunter to save a million dollars would have us paying insane money to all our players to be close or exceed the cap. We are not doing that as even our highest paid players are on reasonable contracts.

    They left for different reasons, but they byproduct is lots of picks in, and lots of cap opened up. We don’t manage our books like Ned Guy!
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

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  19. #12
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    Re: I've been looking at our Salary Cap / Total Player Payments.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    LOL.

    Um - Of course it is.

    There are some posts I guess - like the OP here from BT - that I read and I can see how much effort has gone into it. But I feel bad 'cos I don't really have much to contribute to the conversation...obviously this thread should be a good conversation starter but sometimes there is so much to take in and it is so well thought out that it is a bit of a conversation finisher as well.

    Like - I read it. I like it. I think that I should say 'something' but I just don't have much (aka anything) to add.

    I mean - is there any point saying 'We have money - we should make Sam Taylor an offer he can't refuse?'...'cos it sort of feels redundant after reading the post.

    Anyway - I appreciate you BT. And of course I appreciate you GG.
    Sam Taylor on the wish list. Done!
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

  20. #13
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    Re: I've been looking at our Salary Cap / Total Player Payments.

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogtragic View Post
    I can safely say while those are valid questions. Our TPP is not the reasons why either left. There’s no way we we’re very close (let alone exceeding) to the cap with both of them staying. Dunkley got more cash and wanted out. It seems Hunter could’ve been going one way or another. This was the option that cost the least. Paying part of his salary for a third rounder wouldn’t make much sense. To get rid of both Dunkley & Hunter to save a million dollars would have us paying insane money to all our players to be close or exceed the cap. We are not doing that as even our highest paid players are on reasonable contracts.

    They left for different reasons, but they byproduct is lots of picks in, and lots of cap opened up. We don’t manage our books like Ned Guy!
    There was some speculation that we might have been prepared to pay out Hunter rather than keep him at the club so I agree with your assessment that with or without Dunkley, Hunter and Schache we weren't overly pressed with the salary cap.
    We had already entered into conversations with Lobb who was on a very good contract at Fremantle while we were doing our level best to keep Dunks so it appears the assumption that we had some wiggle room looks correct to me.

    We have the capacity to chase FA players over the next 2 years.
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  22. #14
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    Re: I've been looking at our Salary Cap / Total Player Payments.

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    There was some speculation that we might have been prepared to pay out Hunter rather than keep him at the club so I agree with your assessment that with or without Dunkley, Hunter and Schache we weren't overly pressed with the salary cap.
    We had already entered into conversations with Lobb who was on a very good contract at Fremantle while we were doing our level best to keep Dunks so it appears the assumption that we had some wiggle room looks correct to me.

    We have the capacity to chase FA players over the next 2 years.
    If you remember back to the Morris stuff and what Bevo did, and what i've heard personally I think Lachie was a destructive element. Dunks leaving is without a doubt in my mind related.

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  24. #15
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    Re: I've been looking at our Salary Cap / Total Player Payments.

    De Koning at Carlton will be out of contract at the end of 2023 and said he will put off any contract talks till the end of year.

    Any takers?

    Can we lure him with a big contract and is he worth it
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

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