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  1. #16
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    Re: Former Bulldog Liam Picken launches legal action against AFL, club, doctors after concussions

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Mo77 View Post
    I took a few as well, only once I stopped playing and it was because my vision was messed up. Mind you we didn't really have Doctors in the bush league. They'd just say you probably shouldn't go back on and everyone would say I'm fine and be back out there 5 - 10 minutes later.

    I'm not sure where I sit with this to be honest. If Liam didn't play the way he did he wouldn't have been an AFL footballer, now he's suing them and the club he played for because of the way he played?
    Also, the first allegation dates back to 2014. A lot has changed since that period of time in regards to knowledge around concussion and general opinion. There wasn't even a concussion rule in regards to not being allowed to come back on or having to miss a week in 2014.

  2. #17
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    Re: Former Bulldog Liam Picken launches legal action against AFL, club, doctors after concussions

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Mo77 View Post
    I took a few as well, only once I stopped playing and it was because my vision was messed up. Mind you we didn't really have Doctors in the bush league. They'd just say you probably shouldn't go back on and everyone would say I'm fine and be back out there 5 - 10 minutes later.

    I'm not sure where I sit with this to be honest. If Liam didn't play the way he did he wouldn't have been an AFL footballer, now he's suing them and the club he played for because of the way he played?
    It reads to me more that he feels they didn't give him the proper information to decide if he should be playing at all. So not that he was getting concussed but that we were telling him he was fine to continue to play/train without giving him all the information, sending him to specialists or informing him he performed below average on 'baseline' tests.

    I have no idea on any of the above but I don't think it's as simple as him being upset he got concussed at all.

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  4. #18
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    Re: Former Bulldog Liam Picken launches legal action against AFL, club, doctors after concussions

    Quote Originally Posted by angelopetraglia View Post
    Also, the first allegation dates back to 2014. A lot has changed since that period of time in regards to knowledge around concussion and general opinion. There wasn't even a concussion rule in regards to not being allowed to come back on or having to miss a week in 2014.
    And that will probably be a pretty hard point for Picken's team to overcome. I bet there are plenty of 'studies' the AFL can pull from from the US meant to show concussion isn't a big deal or it's all a bit unknown to cast doubt on what the duty of care was. There were certainly no proper AFL guidelines.

  5. #19
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    Re: Former Bulldog Liam Picken launches legal action against AFL, club, doctors after concussions

    Quote Originally Posted by hujsh View Post
    It reads to me more that he feels they didn't give him the proper information to decide if he should be playing at all. So not that he was getting concussed but that we were telling him he was fine to continue to play/train without giving him all the information, sending him to specialists or informing him he performed below average on 'baseline' tests.

    I have no idea on any of the above but I don't think it's as simple as him being upset he got concussed at all.
    Yes the major issue appears to be that he had recorded below baseline tests which he wasn't either informed about or understood (due to them not being explained) then he was cleared to go back to training/playing.
    My wife just reminded me she spoke to him at a sponsors night about this a while ago and he was explaining all the tests he was having.

    Real shame he appears to be a nice kid and he cant even work atm.

  6. #20
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    Re: Former Bulldog Liam Picken launches legal action against AFL, club, doctors after concussions

    I know the concussion sub wasn't a popular option but I do think it did its piece in removing any incentive to put players back onto the field. There is going to be a huge issue for the AFL and clubs going to forward.
    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

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  8. #21
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    Re: Former Bulldog Liam Picken launches legal action against AFL, club, doctors after concussions

    From wiki:
    "Introduced in 2013 in the AFL, a player suspected of having a concussion must take a 20 minute concussion test. Introduced in 2021 in the AFL, after receiving a concussion, the player must not play in a match for 12 days, unless declared fit to play by an experienced doctor."

    So there were processes and tests for the doctors to follow as far back as 2014, and there is no real indication from that article whether they were out were not followed. There is a separate question of whether the AFL guidelines were appropriate.

    I hope Liam and his family are doing well. Taking this action would have been a very difficult choice, especially as I'm sure he has/had strong relationships with the club doctors.

    Let's not forget that his motivation in this action would be to support his family, in a way that he can't do with his occupation anymore.

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  10. #22
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    Re: Former Bulldog Liam Picken launches legal action against AFL, club, doctors after concussions

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzadogs View Post
    From wiki:
    "Introduced in 2013 in the AFL, a player suspected of having a concussion must take a 20 minute concussion test. Introduced in 2021 in the AFL, after receiving a concussion, the player must not play in a match for 12 days, unless declared fit to play by an experienced doctor."

    So there were processes and tests for the doctors to follow as far back as 2014, and there is no real indication from that article whether they were out were not followed. There is a separate question of whether the AFL guidelines were appropriate.

    I hope Liam and his family are doing well. Taking this action would have been a very difficult choice, especially as I'm sure he has/had strong relationships with the club doctors.

    Let's not forget that his motivation in this action would be to support his family, in a way that he can't do with his occupation anymore.
    Yes he doesn't seem the type to do it unless it was a pretty desperate situation.

  11. #23
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    Re: Former Bulldog Liam Picken launches legal action against AFL, club, doctors after concussions

    This must be terrible for Picken/ his family and the doctors involved, additionally the club itself. It's my hope the club and its operators were following the guidelines. If they weren't then they need to face the consequences.

    If they were then the focus needs to go upstream to what the AFL knew about the impacts of concussion and how to manage them, and what they did to ensure risk was efficiently reduced across the competition.

    I'm not surprised it's the Pickens fighting this fight. They seem relatively socially aware and Liam always had an eye to a career outside of football if things didn't work out, so I'd imagine his ability to achieve what he had in mind beyond what seems the struggle to live an ordinary and productive life would be a huge issue for them.

    As for our doctors I fear they're already tarnished. The burden of proof in a civil case is lower than a criminal one, and working on the assumption the Picken team isn't running a vexatious case it's hard to see them coming out of this unscathed. The club also fits into this category.
    Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.

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  13. #24
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    Re: Former Bulldog Liam Picken launches legal action against AFL, club, doctors after concussions

    This will drag on and Liam will get little and the Lawyers lots.
    Don't piss off old people
    The older we get the less "LIFE IN PRISON" is a deterrent...

  14. #25
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    Re: Former Bulldog Liam Picken launches legal action against AFL, club, doctors after concussions

    It’s interesting that he’s joined us to the proceeding instead of just the AFL because it means that his camp is thinking there’s a specific claim against us as well as the actual injury.

    This is a pretty interesting area of law because we’re well into the era where everyone involved was aware of some risk of head trauma from playing footy. Yet there’s clearly something here or else no one would put their name to it.

    Hope it gets cleaned up quickly, but maybe also I don’t?
    - I'm a visionary - Only here to confirm my biases -

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  16. #26
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    Re: Former Bulldog Liam Picken launches legal action against AFL, club, doctors after concussions

    Quote Originally Posted by jeemak View Post
    This must be terrible for Picken/ his family and the doctors involved, additionally the club itself. It's my hope the club and its operators were following the guidelines. If they weren't then they need to face the consequences.

    If they were then the focus needs to go upstream to what the AFL knew about the impacts of concussion and how to manage them, and what they did to ensure risk was efficiently reduced across the competition.

    I'm not surprised it's the Pickens fighting this fight. They seem relatively socially aware and Liam always had an eye to a career outside of football if things didn't work out, so I'd imagine his ability to achieve what he had in mind beyond what seems the struggle to live an ordinary and productive life would be a huge issue for them.

    As for our doctors I fear they're already tarnished. The burden of proof in a civil case is lower than a criminal one, and working on the assumption the Picken team isn't running a vexatious case it's hard to see them coming out of this unscathed. The club also fits into this category.
    Best case scenario (from a supporters perspective) is the blame goes to the AFL HQ. They're also best positioned to compensate Picken

  17. #27
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    Re: Former Bulldog Liam Picken launches legal action against AFL, club, doctors after concussions

    Quote Originally Posted by hujsh View Post
    Best case scenario (from a supporters perspective) is the blame goes to the AFL HQ. They're also best positioned to compensate Picken
    We don't know what the detailed guidelines for treating concussion were within the league at the time. If there's ambiguity and the club acted in good faith/ professionally in the most reasonable sense then we may be OK. If the doctors didn't then the club is going to be eating poop sandwiches.

    What's troubling to me is the way the lack of disclosure has been tabled, immediately the doctors are in the gun, and naturally the club is as well.
    Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.

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  19. #28
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    Re: Former Bulldog Liam Picken launches legal action against AFL, club, doctors after concussions

    How long do you think until the first media hit piece that references returning Clay Smith to the field for career ending knees, returning Treloar (against Aints) despite tightness costing him months in 2021, McLean re-doing his ACL in months, allowing Morris to play with a broken back, Tom Boyd’s early retirement, Dunkley doing his shoulder against GWS in 2021 in the last quarter when he looked done for the night with it (rent a headline…), let alone a long line of fragile bodies like Jong (allowed to play VFL with a fractured collarbone), Roughead, Stevens (now retired on concussions), Adams (out now with concussions) etc. and so on then comes out trying to allege we have a systemic and long standing issue of prematurely returning players to the field who shouldn’t have been? Ergo, this Picken allegation must be true, irrespective of the specific detail in Pickens writ.

    I give it a few days before certain journos smear our doctors. I’m sure the Essendon media folk want a scalp for their doctor losing his job (being the sort of vindictive sorts they are). I hope the club is ready to defend them immediately against this stuff. I bet it’s coming. Some rival newspapers/journos might see it as a chance to have a dig at one of a big newspaper generally that employs a certain son of one.
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

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  21. #29
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    Re: Former Bulldog Liam Picken launches legal action against AFL, club, doctors after concussions

    Well you've provided some pretty good fuel for it right there.

  22. #30
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    Re: Former Bulldog Liam Picken launches legal action against AFL, club, doctors after concussions

    This is very sad news.
    Liam is forever a Bulldog premiership hero, who should be enjoying his post football career and instead is faced with a debilitating chronic condition that appears to be severely impacting his quality of life.

    If the truth reveals we as a club have been negligent, or worse then I hope Liam is well compensated and more importantly the club puts in place measures that place health outcomes ahead of football outcomes.

    As Jeemak said, at best I hope the club followed established guidelines, but on the premise that Liam's legal team has gone out of their way to attach the club and specifically our medical team to the case, I suspect they've got some very specific claims.

    Al the best to Liam and his future health and ability to hopefully regain a measure of improved quality of life. That's the only outcome I'm interested in.

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