Controversial Opinion: We will/would be BETTER with LOBB in the ruck and English up forward in 2023.

[mjp]

Lobb is with us (in part) because he wants to play forward.
English is determined (or so the jungle drums say) to be ruck, ruck, and nothing but.

Lobb is a BETTER contested ball ruckman than English.
English is a BETTER, more natural and versatile forward.

We should simply flip their starting roles and the team INSTANTLY becomes better.

This of course will never happen because happy players in the locker room create good vibes for days and is ultimately worth it's weight, but from a pure footy sense, the switcheroo makes so much sense. And for everyone who says 'Lobb isn't and never was a ruckman', let me tell you something ('cos I was there). When he was making his way as a young fella at Swan Districts he was EXCLUSIVELY a ruckman and the idea he might actually play somewhere else was laughable...yes, he was a mature age draftee but he played in a State u21's vs State 18's trial game back in 2013/14'ish and he was in the ruck for the state 21's.

Tim? Well...he's a unique talent but for a side that is screaming out for a Hudson style ruckman (keep it in tight, lay tackles, stir the 'pot') he will NEVER be that player...he is (showing my age and state) Graham Moss to the harder, tougher, more contested Stephen Michael (I guess I could say he is Jimmy Stynes to Scott Wynd??) and that is NOT going to change.

He IS a very talented and effective player. But he is the opposite of the ruckman we need and we have the solution not only on our list but in our starting 18.

(And all of this from someone who thought - and still thinks - the recruitment of Lobb was recruiting overkill and he is the last thing we need/needed).

[hujsh]

Lobb is with us (in part) because he wants to play forward.
English is determined (or so the jungle drums say) to be ruck, ruck, and nothing but.

Lobb is a BETTER contested ball ruckman than English.
English is a BETTER, more natural and versatile forward.

We should simply flip their starting roles and the team INSTANTLY becomes better.

This of course will never happen because happy players in the locker room create good vibes for days and is ultimately worth it's weight, but from a pure footy sense, the switcheroo makes so much sense. And for everyone who says 'Lobb isn't and never was a ruckman', let me tell you something ('cos I was there). When he was making his way as a young fella at Swan Districts he was EXCLUSIVELY a ruckman and the idea he might actually play somewhere else was laughable...yes, he was a mature age draftee but he played in a State u21's vs State 18's trial game back in 2013/14'ish and he was in the ruck for the state 21's.

Tim? Well...he's a unique talent but for a side that is screaming out for a Hudson style ruckman (keep it in tight, lay tackles, stir the 'pot') he will NEVER be that player...he is (showing my age and state) Graham Moss to the harder, tougher, more contested Stephen Michael (I guess I could say he is Jimmy Stynes to Scott Wynd??) and that is NOT going to change.

He IS a very talented and effective player. But he is the opposite of the ruckman we need and we have the solution not only on our list but in our starting 18.

(And all of this from someone who thought - and still thinks - the recruitment of Lobb was recruiting overkill and he is the last thing we need/needed).

This point remains to be seen. I can be convinced that on balance Lobb is enough of a better ruck that the team is better with English forward but Lobb was Freo's leading goalkicker and English has had a few good games as the 3rd forward. Maybe in time English will be the better forward but Lobb is superior for now IMO.

[Sedat]

Lobb is with us (in part) because he wants to play forward.
English is determined (or so the jungle drums say) to be ruck, ruck, and nothing but.

Lobb is a BETTER contested ball ruckman than English.
English is a BETTER, more natural and versatile forward.

We should simply flip their starting roles and the team INSTANTLY becomes better.

This of course will never happen because happy players in the locker room create good vibes for days and is ultimately worth it's weight, but from a pure footy sense, the switcheroo makes so much sense. And for everyone who says 'Lobb isn't and never was a ruckman', let me tell you something ('cos I was there). When he was making his way as a young fella at Swan Districts he was EXCLUSIVELY a ruckman and the idea he might actually play somewhere else was laughable...yes, he was a mature age draftee but he played in a State u21's vs State 18's trial game back in 2013/14'ish and he was in the ruck for the state 21's.

Tim? Well...he's a unique talent but for a side that is screaming out for a Hudson style ruckman (keep it in tight, lay tackles, stir the 'pot') he will NEVER be that player...he is (showing my age and state) Graham Moss to the harder, tougher, more contested Stephen Michael (I guess I could say he is Jimmy Stynes to Scott Wynd??) and that is NOT going to change.

He IS a very talented and effective player. But he is the opposite of the ruckman we need and we have the solution not only on our list but in our starting 18.

(And all of this from someone who thought - and still thinks - the recruitment of Lobb was recruiting overkill and he is the last thing we need/needed).

There is nothing remotely controversial about any of the above. If/when English gets ragdolled yet again by the better stoppage ruckmen in the competition (and it might be as early as tomorrow night), at least we have a proper option to stem the bleeding that isn't Bont, Jong, Hannan, Dunks, etc..

As much as we've addressed key list deficiencies in the off season, our premiership credentials in 2023 will be largely be determined by English and whether or not he can finally raise his game at stoppages to match the elite ruckmen of the competition. Our last 3 finals losses all occurred directly from this critical area of weakness. And in Lobb we have someone in our arsenal who can command the position in game at times when it might be desperately needed, should English continue to fall short of the mark.

[mjp]

...Lobb is superior for now IMO.

...which is why it's a controversial opinion.

Lobb = tall, kick it on my head and I'll try to catch it forward.
English = lead and move forward.

[Mofra]

Interestingly, I was thinking of starting a thread where we consider what we should have done in the 2016 draft.

Timmy is a unique player, but 7 years of development is a huge commitment for a guy that was taken ahead of Sean Darcy, Rowan Marshall (rookie), Oscar McInerney (rookie) and Sam Draper (rookie) in the same draft, all of whom arguably suit us better.

Then again, Bevo does care more about a ruck's around the ground work then their ruck craft...
Those guys may not get the same opportunity

[Axe Man]

This point remains to be seen. I can be convinced that on balance Lobb is enough of a better ruck that the team is better with English forward but Lobb was Freo's leading goalkicker and English has had a few good games as the 3rd forward. Maybe in time English will be the better forward but Lobb is superior for now IMO.

Agreed. Lobb has shown and produced more as a forward than Tim ever has.

...which is why it's a controversial opinion.

Lobb = tall, kick it on my head and I'll try to catch it forward.
English = lead and move forward.

Not sure about that. Lobb is also a pretty decent lead and mark forward from what I've seen.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Interesting case study.

Tend to think English's forward craft is overrated though. Beyond a few games/moments, not sure he's ever come close to showing what Lobb has in that part of the ground. Perhaps he would/could with designated minutes.

My fear with English is that he's a tweener - kind of good at rucking (well, besides the actual ruck craft), kind of good at being a forward option. Super talented though.

[lemmon]

Could we extend this a step further and say that we'd just be better suited with English playing forward, Sweet playing ruck and Lobb not being in the side?

Sweet, to my eye, is that bash-and-crash, contested ball ruck and is a better ruckman than Lobb - so why not just play Jordan ruck and English forward of the ball?

I do agree that we're crying out for that player, but I don't think Bevo would. We've seen time and again that unless you're a mobile big man, he's just not going to play you. I don't think Huddo would've played a game of footy under Beveridge and he probably would've copped the Will Minson treatment. I think it has a lot to do with why we haven't gone for a mature-aged ruck despite being desperate to add another to the list - what's the point of Bev won't play them?

[Happy Days]

Yep. Been on about this all off season but in a straight up centre square clearance Lobb is a much better ruckman than English is.

[hujsh]

...which is why it's a controversial opinion.

Lobb = tall, kick it on my head and I'll try to catch it forward.
English = lead and move forward.

I'm sure you've seen more Freo games than I have but I'm surprised you say that as that's the opposite impression I have of Lobb. Watching his highlights from last year I feel like it confirmed my impression from the game against us that he's actually a decently smart and capable leading forward, despite his height seemingly pushing him more towards a contested mark focused gameplay. Am I wrong?

TBH I only really see English's POD over Lobb being his around the ground gameplay (when he's actually on). In everything else Lobb is probably ahead

[bornadog]

...which is why it's a controversial opinion.

Lobb = tall, kick it on my head and I'll try to catch it forward.
English = lead and move forward.

As much as we think, English wants to ruck, my gut says Lobb doesn't want to ruck.

In 2021, when Bruce went down, we switched English to the forward line and Lew Young took his role in the ruck. In the 5 games Tim played forward he kicked 2 goals.

[mjp]

As much as we think, English wants to ruck, my gut says Lobb doesn't want to ruck.

100% and I said that in the OP.

[mjp]

I'm sure you've seen more Freo games than I have but I'm surprised you say that as that's the opposite impression I have of Lobb. Watching his highlights from last year I feel like it confirmed my impression from the game against us that he's actually a decently smart and capable leading forward, despite his height seemingly pushing him more towards a contested mark focused gameplay. Am I wrong?

TBH I only really see English's POD over Lobb being his around the ground gameplay (when he's actually on). In everything else Lobb is probably ahead

He was playing as a sole forward/paired with Tabener for most of the year...you don't have to be smart to make ONE lead. The challenge now is to work in amongst Naughton and Jamarra...THAT requires forward craft.

[Virgin-Dog]

The issue with playing English forward is that he’s one of our most effective defensive interceptors, and also is often a target on the flank/wing from kick outs. Playing him forward instead of ruck robs us of these opportunities. If we saw some combination of Busslinger improving rapidly, Crozier/Williams rediscovering form, Doedee recruited as a FA, etc then I think it suddenly becomes more feasible as we wouldn’t need English dropping back so often to intercept.

[1eyedog]

Lobb can't ruck. He's never been a starting 22 ruck and all his preseason stoppage work has been servicable at best. Playing as an u/21 ruck vs all of a sudden asking him to perform a big role change at AFL level and expecting him to be effective is a pipe dream as far as I'm concerned. Tim and Rory are as ineffective in the ruck as each other and reversing their roles is not going to make a big enough difference to the team's fortunes to warrant the potential kick back we'll get from both players not playing in their preferred positions.

One think I do like about Tim in the ruck is his ability to get around the ground and provide a target. He has an understanding when to drop back and has the ability to gut run forward to provide an option. Not sure we'd get that from Lobb.