Controversial Opinion: We will/would be BETTER with LOBB in the ruck and English up forward in 2023.

[bornadog]

Wasnt he already 19 the year we drafted him (2016) and was into his 4th season with us in 2020.
Doesnt that make him 23 by the finals in 2020?

He was born in August 1997 - ok 22 years old by finals. End of 2019 he played 29 games.

Not sure why people continue to have a go at Tim.

[Jasper]

He was born in August 1997 - ok 22 years old by finals. End of 2019 he played 29 games.

Not sure why people continue to have a go at Tim.

Where did I have a go at him? I just disagreed with your math and that at 23 yo in the 2020 finals that he was a baby.
Im a fan of Timbo and have never bagged him.

[bornadog]

Where did I have a go at him? I just disagreed with your math and that at 23 yo in the 2020 finals that he was a baby.
Im a fan of Timbo and have never bagged him.

Not pointing the finger at you, sorry if it sounded that way.

Tim should be starting to peak now and played a good game on the weekend. Hopefully he will continue to improve.

[MrMahatma]

He was born in August 1997 - ok 22 years old by finals. End of 2019 he played 29 games.

Not sure why people continue to have a go at Tim.

It's not "Tim" people have the issue with. It's the role of the ruckman. I think most would say Tim is a good player and worth having on the list and developing, but also that in previous years wasn't yet physically up to being the #1 ruck and that hurt us.

I agree he's about to hit his prime. I think he has growth left in him too. I also think he needs support.

[Sedat]

Not sure why people continue to have a go at Tim.

Younger and less experienced ruckmen have destroyed Tim in key finals. He has been given almost carte blanche since 2019 to make the no. 1 ruck position his own and the progression has been slow - this unwavering faith in Tim as our no. 1 ruckman has already been incredibly costly in our last 3 finals losses (2022 EF, 2021 GF and 2020 EF).

Complicating things is that he has amazing talents in other parts of his game that are very rare and valuable, but he has been a liability at ruck stoppages more often than he has been a weapon. It is ok to ask questions of the return on investment to date and the expected return in future.

You obviously disagree and that's fine - he's obviously not yet close to being Polly Farmer or Simon Madden, and at his age and experience profile there are still question marks as to whether or not he can become that elite stoppage ruckman. I hope he can, because more than any off-season recruiting it makes us a real premiership threat this year and in the years to come if he can raise his game in this critical area of weakness for us (and him).

[Dogs 24/7]

Younger and less experienced ruckmen have destroyed Tim in key finals. He has been given almost carte blanche since 2019 to make the no. 1 ruck position his own and the progression has been slow - this unwavering faith in Tim as our no. 1 ruckman has already been incredibly costly in our last 3 finals losses (2022 EF, 2021 GF and 2020 EF).

Complicating things is that he has amazing talents in other parts of his game that are very rare and valuable, but he has been a liability at ruck stoppages more often than he has been a weapon. It is ok to ask questions of the return on investment to date and the expected return in future.

You obviously disagree and that's fine - he's obviously not yet close to being Polly Farmer or Simon Madden, and at his age and experience profile there are still question marks as to whether or not he can become that elite stoppage ruckman. I hope he can, because more than any off-season recruiting it makes us a real premiership threat this year and in the years to come if he can raise his game in this critical area of weakness for us (and him).

That is a stat that gets missed in the desperate attempt to protect Tim from scrutiny and I dont get why because its a fact based comment. Turning 26 this year we cant keep playing hes a work in progress card. He needs some support that is all and we shouldnt keep shying away that it's time for him to step up and make an impact.

[Danjul]

That is a stat that gets missed in the desperate attempt to protect Tim from scrutiny and I dont get why because its a fact based comment. Turning 26 this year we cant keep playing hes a work in progress card. He needs some support that is all and we shouldnt keep shying away that it's time for him to step up and make an impact.

Are these actually a thing in this modern politically correct era?

If you say English’s weakness in centre bounces against certain opponents has cost us games it is interpreted as unfair, critical, unsupportive, negative……

In the old days it would have been the starting point for investigating whether it was true. Yes it is. So how do we minimise the risk while still getting maximum benefit from his enormous talent. By using him more wisely. And that could be easy.

On Saturday we had Lobb, Darcy and Naughton to fall back on as plan B. Three forwards who got 1 goal between them.

We were happy for all to fail as forwards and support rucks. After all, it was just a game and they might be better later.

Darcy: 6 disposals.
Hannan: 6 disposals.
Lobb: 6 disposals.
JJ: 6 disposals.
McLean: 5 disposals.

These all did OK. In Hannah’s case 1 of his 3 kicks went went straight over the boundary line. So it was a bonus for the opposition. Yet I have read here that he did Ok.

Why is it OK? Because we are not fact driven.

We need to address an extremely important simple fact. What has been glaringly obvious for a long time.

Forget these passengers- we are not using our superstar (English) sensibly. He needs genuine support and the best support we have is derided and ignored because he might get 6 disposals.

It doesn’t make sense, and that is a fact.

[bornadog]

Younger and less experienced ruckmen have destroyed Tim in key finals. He has been given almost carte blanche since 2019 to make the no. 1 ruck position his own and the progression has been slow - this unwavering faith in Tim as our no. 1 ruckman has already been incredibly costly in our last 3 finals losses (2022 EF, 2021 GF and 2020 EF).
.

Which young ruckman are you talking about? Darcy destroyed him last year, but is 1 year younger and has played more games than Tim? In the GF we had Martin helping out and Tim wasn't number one - Yes Jackson did well in that spurt, but Gawn was the killer.

2020 EF - Rowan Marshall is older than Tim, but he barely touched the ball, Ryder did the damage.

Ruck is not our biggest problem. We win clearances and contested Poss in most games. (except as mentioned previously, Centre Clr v Dees) The issue is defense and delivery to fwd 50.

[Sedat]

Which young ruckman are you talking about? Darcy destroyed him last year, but is 1 year younger and has played more games than Tim? In the GF we had Martin helping out and Tim wasn't number one - Yes Jackson did well in that spurt, but Gawn was the killer.

2020 EF - Rowan Marshall is older than Tim, but he barely touched the ball, Ryder did the damage.

Ruck is not our biggest problem. We win clearances and contested Poss in most games. The issue is defense and delivery to fwd 50.

Strongly disagree with the assertions in the above. Jackson destroyed us in 8 minutes - that 'spurt' single-handedly decided the GF. We would barely even be talking about this if those 8 minutes didn't exist, as we'd all still be drunk from the greatest GF win in VFL/AFL history. Gawn was actually well under control for 2.5 qtrs (mostly from Martin) in the 2021 GF, and he was white-hot in their first 2 finals. So yes, Jackson and Darcy are both younger and both destroyed us in our last 2 finals losses.

Ryder is of course older but he helped St Kilda score 4 goals directly from boundary throw-ins in a low scoring game decided by less than a kick. That's about as damaging and costly in a final as you get in one area.

Tim has been a sunk cost at the pointy end thus far, one we have been willing to accept for a future pay-off. I want that pay-off and I want it badly. The question is, are we going to get it? Is Tim dog-hungry competitive as a stoppage ruckman and is he willing to do whatever it takes to negate and beat the big dogs? Does he have the stoppage ruck craft and the strength to hold his ground, or even overcome, the best opposition ruckmen? He's proven he can beat up on the clydesdale ruckmen for fun, but can he raise his game against the absolute best? If he can, we win at least a premiership in the next 2-3 years. That's how important Tim is to our fortunes.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

It's controversial because both have stated they do not want to.
The modern world catering to egos.
It seems like an obvious move for the club which must come first.
No prima donnas this club demands better.
Is the cropped tail wagging the bulldog?

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Cant delete.

[Dogs 24/7]

Strongly disagree with the assertions in the above. Jackson destroyed us in 8 minutes - that 'spurt' single-handedly decided the GF. We would barely even be talking about this if those 8 minutes didn't exist, as we'd all still be drunk from the greatest GF win in VFL/AFL history. Gawn was actually well under control for 2.5 qtrs (mostly from Martin) in the 2021 GF, and he was white-hot in their first 2 finals. So yes, Jackson and Darcy are both younger and both destroyed us in our last 2 finals losses.

Ryder is of course older but he helped St Kilda score 4 goals directly from boundary throw-ins in a low scoring game decided by less than a kick. That's about as damaging and costly in a final as you get in one area.

Tim has been a sunk cost at the pointy end thus far, one we have been willing to accept for a future pay-off. I want that pay-off and I want it badly. The question is, are we going to get it? Is Tim dog-hungry competitive as a stoppage ruckman and is he willing to do whatever it takes to negate and beat the big dogs? Does he have the stoppage ruck craft and the strength to hold his ground, or even overcome, the best opposition ruckmen? He's proven he can beat up on the clydesdale ruckmen for fun, but can he raise his game against the absolute best? If he can, we win at least a premiership in the next 2-3 years. That's how important Tim is to our fortunes.

How quick we forget the damage Jackson did and I agree we cant continue to make excuses for Tim anymore unless its to acknowledge that he needed a better supporting team around him along the way.

[Happy Days]

Based on what I saw in the pre-season games and with the pre-Lobb recruitment acknowledgment that Tim needed better support, there’s just no way Lobb was brought in to not play significant ruck minutes.

I’m willing to buy that in light of his ankle issues he was played more forward than he will be upon his return and really think this concern will be assuaged.

[mjp]

but Gawn was the killer.

Ummm. Nope.

Jackson was the killer.

[bornadog]

Ummm. Nope.

Jackson was the killer.

Did it even happen as I honestly can't remember.

I had to look up Stats and Gawn had the most hit outs, but take your word for it.