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Re: Effort
Originally Posted by
mjp
I will maintain forever that what is acceptable in terms of effort is determined by the players.
Pushing up to the oppo ball carrier is hard - and pushing up to 'replace' your mate who has pushed up to the oppo ball carrier is even harder....and pushing up to replace your mate who has pushed up to replace your other mate who has pushed up to the oppo ball carrier is even harder. And sliding from the fatside to replace your mate who has pushed up to replace your other mate who has pushed up to replace your other mate who has pushed up to pressure the oppo ball carrier is harder still...
But you have to do it instinctively and - importantly - with intent. If you go through the motions and leave that 3m cushion then the whole deck of cards collapses...and out the back / over the top they go and an easy goal is the result.
But the players need to be demanding this of one another. Feedback from the coaches about who is doing what and whose 'fault' it is? Seriously, no-one cares...no-one. What matters is being made to feel like your efforts to work are being supported/rewarded by your on-field mates...and being desperate not to let them down. Coaches set strategy and help to 'guide' culture...but the nuts and bolts of how a team works together comes from the players and there is genuinely only so much Bevo (in this case) can do.
It's the whole "you can present the material but you can't make me care" element of being in a team that can be such a challenge for coaches...the leadership group (or whoever the leaders are whether they are in a formal 'group' or not) need to be driving this stuff...
Lachie Neal admitting he didn't put in the effort and taking personal responsibility was refreshing to hear.
FFC: Established 1883
Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.
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Re: Effort
Originally Posted by
bornadog
Lachie Neal admitting he didn't put in the effort and taking personal responsibility was refreshing to hear.
Did he say why he didn't put in the effort? That is the key to it.
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Re: Effort
I have always felt effort has to go hand in hand with a compelling story and narrative from the coach. A reason to take that extra step, to run when you don t think you can, to feel you were part of something unique and special. That was where Bevo was brilliant in 2015-2016 with a why not us story which almost embraced our history of disappointment. Watching those finals again recently the levels of desperation and commitment were astounding, and surely why not us was the reason the team found something extra after losing the lead and facing another chapter of our finals failures.
Last year he began the season with stories about our team becoming revolutionaries, drawing on the spirit of Che Guevara etc. The team lost to Melb in round one in a mirror image of our GF defeat, Bevo engaged in a silly, embarrassing and unnecessary battle with a journo, and the revolutionary theme was never mentioned again.
Last edited by The bulldog tragician; 23-03-2023 at 03:01 PM.
Reason: Typos galore
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Re: Effort
If effort is defined by Jack Macrae trying to stop Petracca from busting through a tackle then it was piss poor.
Seriously... my 7yo tackles with more vigour.
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Re: Effort
Originally Posted by
The bulldog tragician
I have always felt effort has to go hand in hand with a compelling story and narrative from the coach.
Not as meaningful as a 'Thanks mate' and a pat on the back from your team-mate.
I DO agree that if there is a narrative then that narrative should be consistent and the example you use from 2022 is compelling...again though, that is all cream on the cake stuff...
Remember, the players don't 'belong' to the coach - rather (in 2023 more than ever), the players ALLOW the coach to coach them. And you have to earn that right every day.
What should I tell her? She's going to ask.
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Re: Effort
Originally Posted by
mjp
Not as meaningful as a 'Thanks mate' and a pat on the back from your team-mate.
I DO agree that if there is a narrative then that narrative should be consistent and the example you use from 2022 is compelling...again though, that is all cream on the cake stuff...
Remember, the players don't 'belong' to the coach - rather (in 2023 more than ever), the players ALLOW the coach to coach them. And you have to earn that right every day.
Does that mean we would have won a flag with BMac (genuine question)? Do coaches harvest/bring to the fore something that’s already there?
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Re: Effort
Originally Posted by
mjp
I will maintain forever that what is acceptable in terms of effort is determined by the players.
Pushing up to the oppo ball carrier is hard - and pushing up to 'replace' your mate who has pushed up to the oppo ball carrier is even harder....and pushing up to replace your mate who has pushed up to replace your other mate who has pushed up to the oppo ball carrier is even harder. And sliding from the fatside to replace your mate who has pushed up to replace your other mate who has pushed up to replace your other mate who has pushed up to pressure the oppo ball carrier is harder still...
But you have to do it instinctively and - importantly - with intent. If you go through the motions and leave that 3m cushion then the whole deck of cards collapses...and out the back / over the top they go and an easy goal is the result.
But the players need to be demanding this of one another. Feedback from the coaches about who is doing what and whose 'fault' it is? Seriously, no-one cares...no-one. What matters is being made to feel like your efforts to work are being supported/rewarded by your on-field mates...and being desperate not to let them down. Coaches set strategy and help to 'guide' culture...but the nuts and bolts of how a team works together comes from the players and there is genuinely only so much Bevo (in this case) can do.
It's the whole "you can present the material but you can't make me care" element of being in a team that can be such a challenge for coaches...the leadership group (or whoever the leaders are whether they are in a formal 'group' or not) need to be driving this stuff...
So true. That's what I mean by being a little bit stale. Do Bont and Macrae still work as hard for each other as they did in 2016? Or have they become stale. They really do not inspire as leaders on the field IMO.
We need players who play on the edge and drive others to be better. Think Boyd, think Clay Smith etc..
I'm not sure if Bevo likes to recruit nice people only and that's part of our problem? I can't answer that however we really do seem to like good citizens first over other personality traits. (which is ok).
For me guys like West, Garcia, Smith, Weightman, Vandermeer have that edge I like. They may not be as talented, but man they aren't going to die wondering.
I'd like to see more of these guys getting time over JJ, Duryea, Hannan etc.
Garcia and West as the small forwards gives me more confidence than Hannan and JJ.
Lets play the kids.
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Re: Effort
Originally Posted by
Bulldog4life
Did he say why he didn't put in the effort? That is the key to it.
He said he didn't seem to have the energy levels.
FFC: Established 1883
Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.
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Re: Effort
I find our lack of 'effort' so hard to judge.
How much is work rate? How much is not sacrificing aspects of your game for the team (whilst still working 'hard' in terms of individual performance? How much is structural/tactical? How much is Bevo not getting them up/'buy in'?
A guy who stands out in our team to me is Ed Richards. He is worth more than the sum of his parts guy. Killing it in a specific role that adds value to the side. So different to basically every player we have.
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Re: Effort
Originally Posted by
bornadog
He said he didn't seem to have the energy levels.
Thanks BAD.
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Re: Effort
Originally Posted by
Grantysghost
So true. That's what I mean by being a little bit stale. Do Bont and Macrae still work as hard for each other as they did in 2016? Or have they become stale. They really do not inspire as leaders on the field IMO.
We need players who play on the edge and drive others to be better. Think Boyd, think Clay Smith etc..
I'm not sure if Bevo likes to recruit nice people only and that's part of our problem? I can't answer that however we really do seem to like good citizens first over other personality traits. (which is ok).
For me guys like West, Garcia, Smith, Weightman, Vandermeer have that edge I like. They may not be as talented, but man they aren't going to die wondering.
I'd like to see more of these guys getting time over JJ, Duryea, Hannan etc.
Garcia and West as the small forwards gives me more confidence than Hannan and JJ.
Lets play the kids.
Don't agree with your comments re Bont not being a leader. When you see him out there, you can see his work rate is incredible. He leads by example.
FFC: Established 1883
Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.
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Re: Effort
Originally Posted by
bornadog
Don't agree with your comments re Bont not being a leader. When you see him out there, you can see his work rate is incredible. He leads by example.
I don't know, he's been out there for those massive run ons so not sure if that's setting much of an example.
He's not been the same since the GF from an output point of view.
Hopefully just injuries, although our team was broken because of Dunks and Hunter so I'm not sure anymore what's true.
Leadership to me is sensing the game situation, calling a play to mitigate damage and influencing the team to instruct them to carry it out.
Haven't seen enough of it personally.
Also he's the greatest player ever so there's that.
I'm backing him to have a yuuuuge game this week.
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Re: Effort
Can't help but wonder whether being exalted as the best midfield going 'round for half your career is particularly helpful when you're inevitably tapped on the shoulder and asked to play a more selfless game for the greater good.
BORDERLINE FLYING
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Re: Effort
Originally Posted by
Mantis
If effort is defined by Jack Macrae trying to stop Petracca from busting through a tackle then it was piss poor.
I don't like the 7yo reference because, well - tackling a 7 yo vs tackling possibly the best player in the AFL are not really related to each other in any way...but OF COURSE broken tackles are a great measure of effort and a stat used by coaches everywhere to assess whether your teams effort is in the green zone or the red zone.
Most sides have a series of indicators for effort just like they do for game-plan...broken tackles, tackle per oppo possession, loose ball gets, 2v1 contests (both for as a positive and against as a negative) are all things that go into that 'bucket'.
Here's the key point though. With that tackle - there is NOTHING that the coaches can do about it. If Jack was a repeat offender with this sort of thing, sure - they can leave him out...but that doesn't help on game-day. I'm pretty sure Jack doesn't feel great about that particular contest and will have a point to prove with his tackling this weekend - but is there anything anyone really wanted/expected Bevo to actually DO about it in the moment??
What should I tell her? She's going to ask.
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Re: Effort
I don’t know about effort. I don’t see it as an issue for this squad, we’d have to settle on some mechanisms and measurements, but my eye tells me that we put in as much as the next team.
If it was as simple as try harder, I reckon there’d be 18 premiers every year.
But I suspect we could broaden the definition and pick out where we aren’t getting the required buy in, or there is a clear break down in expectations and execution.
I’d have thought a psychological mastermind and supreme motivator like Bevo wouldn’t have trouble on this front.