3 things I've learned - R2 vs StKilda

[bornadog]

Ok then just continue with 50 point losses. Personal ruck stats are the not the only measure in why we need another ruck. Nullifying the opposing ruck is another and throwing your weight around is another.

Sweet does nothing around the ground. T

Tim had 21 disposals 8 marks and 5 tackles on top of hitouts. Ruck is not our problem.

Yesterday it was getting the ball into actual F50 and giving forwards a chance. 37 inside 50s is not good enough in modern footy.

[D Mitchell]

We had Treloar and Smith in the team last week who are supposedly hard bodied explosive mids yet we still got towelled up.

I wouldn't call either a big-bodied mid. Our 2, Bont & Mcrae, don't explode forward like the Melbourne 2, perhaps because they both lack pace. The collapse in form, application and effort is a mystery to me, the change in what works, from possession footy to explosive footy, is the best I can come up with.

[merantau]

I watched GC and Essendon yesterday. The difference between how they moved the ball and how we moved it was frightening. Players running into space, passes hitting blokes lace out on the chest, someone running by to take a handpass, forwards leading into space and running to meet the ball for a mark and a set shot from inside 50.

The speed of ball movement was very impressive. Furthermore, we are not getting numbers to the contest like we used to.
I'm an optimist but if we don't beat Brisbane we are digging a deep hole. A good performance won't cut it. A win is a must.

[whythelongface]

1. The game on Saturday night was that insipid that I decided to cut my toe nails whilst watching the footy (gross I hear you say). Thus I can multitask- something I new I learnt about myself.
2. Having the ALP win the election here in NSW made Saturday night (just) bearable. There is always a silver lining
3. Bevo is skating on ice thinner than a lake that is thawing out as spring fast approaches- I have been supportive but gee this is surely life support stuff.

[Danjul]

Sweet does nothing around the ground. T

Tim had 21 disposals 8 marks and 5 tackles on top of hitouts. Ruck is not our problem.

Yesterday it was getting the ball into actual F50 and giving forwards a chance. 37 inside 50s is not good enough in modern footy.

34 seconds after the first bounce the Saints scored a goal. At the start of the third quarter they took longer, 45 seconds.

On two other occasions they goaled within 2 minutes of a centre bounce.

on three occasions it took 3 minutes.

Seems like a factor. That?s more goals than we can kick in a whole game.

For comparison.

Against Melbourne in the deluge, where the Dogs touched the ball only 4 times in 5 opposition goals it still took an average of 2 minutes.

Is the Saints engine room really equal to Gawn, Petracca and Oliver?

St Kilda actually had 2 goals on the board in the first two and a half minutes. That?s faster than Melbourne.

In a total of 14 minutes after centre bounces St Kilda kicked more goals than the Dogs could in 110 minutes.

In other words it is the match winning factor.

It doesn?t matter what else happens during any other part of the game. There is no other factor.

[Ozza]

I watched GC and Essendon yesterday. The difference between how they moved the ball and how we moved it was frightening. Players running into space, passes hitting blokes lace out on the chest, someone running by to take a handpass, forwards leading into space and running to meet the ball for a mark and a set shot from inside 50.

The speed of ball movement was very impressive. Furthermore, we are not getting numbers to the contest like we used to.
I'm an optimist but if we don't beat Brisbane we are digging a deep hole. A good performance won't cut it. A win is a must.

I think that is about what the opposition gives you though. It will take Essendon being able to do this against a decent side before I'll be convinced they can move the ball really well.

In terms of the comment about us not getting numbers to the contest - we are certainly intending to. When there is a stoppage we always sent up an extra and the Saints had one behind the footy (usually Wilkie). However, given we are seriously lacking pace, we are not getting our numbers there around the ground.

[1eyedog]

34 seconds after the first bounce the Saints scored a goal. At the start of the third quarter they took longer, 45 seconds.

On two other occasions they goaled within 2 minutes of a centre bounce.

on three occasions it took 3 minutes.

Seems like a factor. That?s more goals than we can kick in a whole game.

For comparison.

Against Melbourne in the deluge, where the Dogs touched the ball only 4 times in 5 opposition goals it still took an average of 2 minutes.

Is the Saints engine room really equal to Gawn, Petracca and Oliver?

St Kilda actually had 2 goals on the board in the first two and a half minutes. That?s faster than Melbourne.

In a total of 14 minutes after centre bounces St Kilda kicked more goals than the Dogs could in 110 minutes.

In other words it is the match winning factor.

It doesn?t matter what else happens during any other part of the game. There is no other factor.

I spent all of 1 minute looking back over the first two examples you used as evidence to support the premise that the ruck is our issue.

Example 1 - 34 seconds after the first bounce the Saints score a goal. The centre bounce play that led to that goal was as follows. English clearly wins the tap to Macrae who is immediately wrapped up. Rather than holding onto the ball to force another stoppage he releases in the air and the Saints swoop. English again follows up breaking up the Saints handball but the ball serendipitously falls the Saints way and they are away to Phillipou.

Example 2 - Opening bounce 3rd quarter the Saints score a goal in 45 seconds. Once again English clearly beats Marshall at the centre bounce putting it at the feet of Libba who is uncharacteristcally unclean and is gang tackled. Once again rather than hold onto the ball and force a secondary ball up he squeezes one out to Daniel who is lost at sea and turns it over with a grubber hand pass. Saints away.

The ruck wasn't our problem on Saturday night not by a far margin. I haven't looked at your other two examples but in 1 minute I've already broken down half of your argument. I'm not trying to be facetious I love your posts but we have to be careful pin boarding stats in support of such strong one-sided arguments.

A cursory glance at the match stats suggests that English broke even in hit outs with Marshall (Marshall is a very good young ruck who has dominated English in the past), and that's not counting the 'at least three occassions' that English outmanouvered Marshall took it out of the ruck and kicked the ball forward. I actually thought English was pretty good.

The Saints are not a better team they were well coached, maintained their shape all night, had high-pressure focus all night and did it with numbers and workrate which once again created perceived pressure leading to turnovers / skill errors.

I was so angry watching the game in the context of the two examples you highlighted. Why the hell did Macrae and Libba just pop the ball out when they were immediately tackled? Every tackle coach that I've ever worked with (Malcolm Bangs in particular who is great) told me not to release the ball when you are immediately tackled unless you are more likely than not to get it to a team mate. Macrae and Daniel were deers in highlights all night and they should not be at the stoppage full stop.

We just kept turning the ball over in this way. We needed to be smarter and force secondary stoppages because it played right into the Saints hands who actually wanted to get the ball moving as fast as possible.

[Boots]

1) I am dreading the Lions game
2) a 0-2 start feels like a mountain to climb
3) Everything anyone says about pre-season performance is suspect

[MrMahatma]

I spent all of 1 minute looking back over the first two examples you used as evidence to support the premise that the ruck is our issue.

Example 1 - 34 seconds after the first bounce the Saints score a goal. The centre bounce play that led to that goal was as follows. English clearly wins the tap to Macrae who is immediately wrapped up. Rather than holding onto the ball to force another stoppage he releases in the air and the Saints swoop. English again follows up breaking up the Saints handball but the ball serendipitously falls the Saints way and they are away to Phillipou.

Example 2 - Opening bounce 3rd quarter the Saints score a goal in 45 seconds. Once again English clearly beats Marshall at the centre bounce putting it at the feet of Libba who is uncharacteristcally unclean and is gang tackled. Once again rather than hold onto the ball and force a secondary ball up he squeezes one out to Daniel who is lost at sea and turns it over with a grubber hand pass. Saints away.

The ruck wasn't our problem on Saturday night not by a far margin. I haven't looked at your other two examples but in 1 minute I've already broken down half of your argument. I'm not trying to be facetious I love your posts but we have to be careful pin boarding stats in support of such strong one-sided arguments.

A cursory glance at the match stats suggests that English broke even in hit outs with Marshall (Marshall is a very good young ruck who has dominated English in the past), and that's not counting the 'at least three occassions' that English outmanouvered Marshall took it out of the ruck and kicked the ball forward. I actually thought English was pretty good.

The Saints are not a better team they were well coached, maintained their shape all night, had high-pressure focus all night and did it with numbers and workrate which once again created perceived pressure leading to turnovers / skill errors.

I was so angry watching the game in the context of the two examples you highlighted. Why the hell did Macrae and Libba just pop the ball out when they were immediately tackled? Every tackle coach that I've ever worked with (Malcolm Bangs in particular who is great) told me not to release the ball when you are immediately tackled unless you are more likely than not to get it to a team mate. Macrae and Daniel were deers in highlights all night and they should not be at the stoppage full stop.

We just kept turning the ball over in this way. We needed to be smarter and force secondary stoppages because it played right into the Saints hands who actually wanted to get the ball moving as fast as possible.

Stoppage coach issue?

[bornadog]

I spent all of 1 minute looking back over the first two examples you used as evidence to support the premise that the ruck is our issue.

Example 1 - 34 seconds after the first bounce the Saints score a goal. The centre bounce play that led to that goal was as follows. English clearly wins the tap to Macrae who is immediately wrapped up. Rather than holding onto the ball to force another stoppage he releases in the air and the Saints swoop. English again follows up breaking up the Saints handball but the ball serendipitously falls the Saints way and they are away to Phillipou.

Example 2 - Opening bounce 3rd quarter the Saints score a goal in 45 seconds. Once again English clearly beats Marshall at the centre bounce putting it at the feet of Libba who is uncharacteristcally unclean and is gang tackled. Once again rather than hold onto the ball and force a secondary ball up he squeezes one out to Daniel who is lost at sea and turns it over with a grubber hand pass. Saints away.

The ruck wasn't our problem on Saturday night not by a far margin. I haven't looked at your other two examples but in 1 minute I've already broken down half of your argument. I'm not trying to be facetious I love your posts but we have to be careful pin boarding stats in support of such strong one-sided arguments.

A cursory glance at the match stats suggests that English broke even in hit outs with Marshall (Marshall is a very good young ruck who has dominated English in the past), and that's not counting the 'at least three occassions' that English outmanouvered Marshall took it out of the ruck and kicked the ball forward. I actually thought English was pretty good.

The Saints are not a better team they were well coached, maintained their shape all night, had high-pressure focus all night and did it with numbers and workrate which once again created perceived pressure leading to turnovers / skill errors.

I was so angry watching the game in the context of the two examples you highlighted. Why the hell did Macrae and Libba just pop the ball out when they were immediately tackled? Every tackle coach that I've ever worked with (Malcolm Bangs in particular who is great) told me not to release the ball when you are immediately tackled unless you are more likely than not to get it to a team mate. Macrae and Daniel were deers in highlights all night and they should not be at the stoppage full stop.

We just kept turning the ball over in this way. We needed to be smarter and force secondary stoppages because it played right into the Saints hands who actually wanted to get the ball moving as fast as possible.

I thought a number of times we got our hands on the ball in the centre but just didn't get a clearance out of it due to fancy handballs that just went straight to a Saints player. Macrae was one of the culprits most of the night, turning over the ball with stupid handballs.

It was a very sloppy performance from the mids in the centre.

[Sedat]

I spent all of 1 minute looking back over the first two examples you used as evidence to support the premise that the ruck is our issue.

Example 1 - 34 seconds after the first bounce the Saints score a goal. The centre bounce play that led to that goal was as follows. English clearly wins the tap to Macrae who is immediately wrapped up. Rather than holding onto the ball to force another stoppage he releases in the air and the Saints swoop. English again follows up breaking up the Saints handball but the ball serendipitously falls the Saints way and they are away to Phillipou.

Example 2 - Opening bounce 3rd quarter the Saints score a goal in 45 seconds. Once again English clearly beats Marshall at the centre bounce putting it at the feet of Libba who is uncharacteristcally unclean and is gang tackled. Once again rather than hold onto the ball and force a secondary ball up he squeezes one out to Daniel who is lost at sea and turns it over with a grubber hand pass. Saints away.

The ruck wasn't our problem on Saturday night not by a far margin. I haven't looked at your other two examples but in 1 minute I've already broken down half of your argument. I'm not trying to be facetious I love your posts but we have to be careful pin boarding stats in support of such strong one-sided arguments.

A cursory glance at the match stats suggests that English broke even in hit outs with Marshall (Marshall is a very good young ruck who has dominated English in the past), and that's not counting the 'at least three occassions' that English outmanouvered Marshall took it out of the ruck and kicked the ball forward. I actually thought English was pretty good.

The Saints are not a better team they were well coached, maintained their shape all night, had high-pressure focus all night and did it with numbers and workrate which once again created perceived pressure leading to turnovers / skill errors.

I was so angry watching the game in the context of the two examples you highlighted. Why the hell did Macrae and Libba just pop the ball out when they were immediately tackled? Every tackle coach that I've ever worked with (Malcolm Bangs in particular who is great) told me not to release the ball when you are immediately tackled unless you are more likely than not to get it to a team mate. Macrae and Daniel were deers in highlights all night and they should not be at the stoppage full stop.

We just kept turning the ball over in this way. We needed to be smarter and force secondary stoppages because it played right into the Saints hands who actually wanted to get the ball moving as fast as possible.

if the premise was changed from "ruck is the only factor" to "our stoppage/clearance game is the only factor", I think the discussion has merit. English is by no means the sole reason when our stoppage/clearance game breaks down - I've been critical of him in the past for his lack of strength and uncompromising competitiveness at stoppage, but there has to be some acountability to very senior, experienced, highly talented mids who are not working anywhere near hard enough on the defensive side of their game on occasions when it is required. And I'm talking about Bulldog royalty like Bont, Macrae and Libba. Conceding massive run-ons in super quick succession has been a familiar feature of our team for a couple of years now - this is not a breakdown of D50, it is a total breakdown further up the ground, either in F50 lack of pressure or in midfield lack of defensive pressure/workrate (or both).

[azabob]

We just kept turning the ball over in this way. We needed to be smarter and force secondary stoppages because it played right into the Saints hands who actually wanted to get the ball moving as fast as possible.

Stoppage coach issue?

I thought a number of times we got our hands on the ball in the centre but just didn't get a clearance out of it due to fancy handballs that just went straight to a Saints player. Macrae was one of the culprits most of the night, turning over the ball with stupid handballs.

It was a very sloppy performance from the mids in the centre.

if the premise was changed from "ruck is the only factor" to "our stoppage/clearance game is the only factor", I think the discussion has merit..

Great analysis 1eye.
Clearly our game has been based on numbers at the contest and keep the ball moving in tight spaces and get it to a player in the open.
The opposition have caught onto this fact and our game plan and players have not evolved.

Did we look to change this method during the preseason or are we chips all in with it? If we are all in, the future looks bleak, very bleak.

[bornadog]

Great analysis 1eye.
Clearly our game has been based on numbers at the contest and keep the ball moving in tight spaces and get it to a player in the open.
The opposition have caught onto this fact and our game plan and players have not evolved.

Did we look to change this method during the preseason or are we chips all in with it? If we are all in, the future looks bleak, very bleak.

Do we think now that Lade has come and in charge of the midfield that he has tried to change things up with the setup and it is failing?

He has certainly helped Tim, but the mids are not performing.

[Prince Imperial]

I don't have access to the final hit out to advantage stats but they were shown on the scoreboard a few times and at one stage were 8-3 in English's favour over Marshall. I thought overall English was one of our best.

Our mids are not adjusting to having a more competitive English and until they do we will continue to struggle.

[1eyedog]

Stoppage coach issue?

I honestly have no idea we don't seem to have changed up personnel in there so I feel opposition coaches have worked it out.

if the premise was changed from "ruck is the only factor" to "our stoppage/clearance game is the only factor", I think the discussion has merit. English is by no means the sole reason when our stoppage/clearance game breaks down - I've been critical of him in the past for his lack of strength and uncompromising competitiveness at stoppage, but there has to be some acountability to very senior, experienced, highly talented mids who are not working anywhere near hard enough on the defensive side of their game on occasions when it is required. And I'm talking about Bulldog royalty like Bont, Macrae and Libba. Conceding massive run-ons in super quick succession has been a familiar feature of our team for a couple of years now - this is not a breakdown of D50, it is a total breakdown further up the ground, either in F50 lack of pressure or in midfield lack of defensive pressure/workrate (or both).

100% agree. I thought Libba in particular was really down on Saturday night. I haven't even looked at his stats but the Saints were ants on candy with him all night.

Great analysis 1eye.
Clearly our game has been based on numbers at the contest and keep the ball moving in tight spaces and get it to a player in the open.
The opposition have caught onto this fact and our game plan and players have not evolved.

Did we look to change this method during the preseason or are we chips all in with it? If we are all in, the future looks bleak, very bleak.

We don't seem to have created any pont of difference to what we've done over the past few years so it is a concern. A mate at the game suggested we move Dale into the middle as he'd played midfield across his first few years and had played well there at times. Discussions like this (and throwing Daniel in the midfield) tell me that we're aware of the problem as supporters and as a club but whatever we're doing isn't working (or hasn't worked so far).