3 things I've learned - R2 vs StKilda

[mjp]

Example 1 - 34 seconds after the first bounce the Saints score a goal. The centre bounce play that led to that goal was as follows. English clearly wins the tap to Macrae who is immediately wrapped up. Rather than holding onto the ball to force another stoppage he releases in the air and the Saints swoop. English again follows up breaking up the Saints handball but the ball serendipitously falls the Saints way and they are away to Phillipou.

Example 2 - Opening bounce 3rd quarter the Saints score a goal in 45 seconds. Once again English clearly beats Marshall at the centre bounce putting it at the feet of Libba who is uncharacteristcally unclean and is gang tackled. Once again rather than hold onto the ball and force a secondary ball up he squeezes one out to Daniel who is lost at sea and turns it over with a grubber hand pass. Saints away.

....and I can hear everyone screaming "Ball Security" around the match review screen.

This is time and place stuff - start of game, start of 2nd half. Players at high levels of arousal post leaving the rooms trying to make something happen rather than playing the game...it's actually a GOOD sign that they care - or a sign that they care. Usual stuff right - when things go bad:

1/. Defenders just play on their men. They don't run off, they don't help each other. At the end of the game, they want to be able to say 'I kept my man quiet'. Of course, ball movement suffers MASSIVELY!

2/. Forwards wont come at the foot. They all want to be 'the target' and 'in range'....so at the end of the game they can say - hey, look, I was DANGEROUS...look at the scores I was involved in. Never mind that leads to a crowded forward line, players up the ground under pressure (they have no-one coming at them) and oppo intercept marks.

3/. Mids just want stats. Dumb, stupid numbers. How can you have played bad when you had 30?? Don't worry about the oppo - just get NUMBERS 'cos numbers mean you are a good player. Don't they?

We are in a pretty typical cycle right now that every single team from u7's on goes through at some stage...and the challenge is that there is only one way out of it. To refocus on goals that are effort related NOT footy related and just let the process take over. Honestly, all of the talk about inside 50's and scoring shots etc - right now, they are not worth a pinch of shit. Work out what we believe in:

- Tackle target with an associated missed tackle number.
- Secondary stoppages.
- Uncontested marks + HBR by oppo - willingness to chase and defend.
- Uncontested marks by = hbr by us (willingness to run and support one another)....
- Consecutive possessions by oppo...

There's a million of 'em...pick 3. Make the targets achievable but challenging. Bounce the ball.

[mjp]

We don't seem to have created any pont of difference to what we've done over the past few years so it is a concern. A mate at the game suggested we move Dale into the middle as he'd played midfield across his first few years and had played well there at times. Discussions like this (and throwing Daniel in the midfield) tell me that we're aware of the problem as supporters and as a club but whatever we're doing isn't working (or hasn't worked so far).

I'm all for moving blokes around but generally when you're getting done you want to put players in roles where they can be successful and predictable to those around them. I'm down for moving Dale forward if we are 7 points down with 2 minutes to go - why not roll the dice and try and pinch it...but in a game where our effort is so poor, what would you be moving him for? To take him away from his #1 position and give him an excuse for not fighting it out? I would have done the opposite and told the players "I am NOT moving you - we got ourselves into this mess and we are going to fight our way out of it...don't go looking for an escape hatch from your current situation - we are going to fight this out. Head down, bum up, let's go."

[Bulldog4life]

I honestly have no idea we don't seem to have changed up personnel in there so I feel opposition coaches have worked it out.



100% agree. I thought Libba in particular was really down on Saturday night. I haven't even looked at his stats but the Saints were ants on candy with him all night.



We don't seem to have created any pont of difference to what we've done over the past few years so it is a concern. A mate at the game suggested we move Dale into the middle as he'd played midfield across his first few years and had played well there at times. Discussions like this (and throwing Daniel in the midfield) tell me that we're aware of the problem as supporters and as a club but whatever we're doing isn't working (or hasn't worked so far).

I thought during the game why not throw Dale forward. I remember when he went on that goal kicking spree a few years ago.

[1eyedog]

....and I can hear everyone screaming "Ball Security" around the match review screen.

This is time and place stuff - start of game, start of 2nd half. Players at high levels of arousal post leaving the rooms trying to make something happen rather than playing the game...it's actually a GOOD sign that they care - or a sign that they care. Usual stuff right - when things go bad:

1/. Defenders just play on their men. They don't run off, they don't help each other. At the end of the game, they want to be able to say 'I kept my man quiet'. Of course, ball movement suffers MASSIVELY!

2/. Forwards wont come at the foot. They all want to be 'the target' and 'in range'....so at the end of the game they can say - hey, look, I was DANGEROUS...look at the scores I was involved in. Never mind that leads to a crowded forward line, players up the ground under pressure (they have no-one coming at them) and oppo intercept marks.

3/. Mids just want stats. Dumb, stupid numbers. How can you have played bad when you had 30?? Don't worry about the oppo - just get NUMBERS 'cos numbers mean you are a good player. Don't they?

We are in a pretty typical cycle right now that every single team from u7's on goes through at some stage...and the challenge is that there is only one way out of it. To refocus on goals that are effort related NOT footy related and just let the process take over. Honestly, all of the talk about inside 50's and scoring shots etc - right now, they are not worth a pinch of shit. Work out what we believe in:

- Tackle target with an associated missed tackle number.
- Secondary stoppages.
- Uncontested marks + HBR by oppo - willingness to chase and defend.
- Uncontested marks by = hbr by us (willingness to run and support one another)....
- Consecutive possessions by oppo...

There's a million of 'em...pick 3. Make the targets achievable but challenging. Bounce the ball.

If you're suggesting that players release the ball carelessly to attain another stat that is pretty damning.

[mjp]

If you're suggesting that players release the ball carelessly to attain another stat that is pretty damning.

Nah - I didn't really say that. I said in the two examples that came immediately after a 'major break', we tried to force a handball out of congestion in an effort to make something (positive) happen. But what they should have done is simply secure the footy.

If you want me to say that mids chase cheap kicks when their team is losing, well, I 100% think that is the case...damning or otherwise.

[Boots]

....and I can hear everyone screaming "Ball Security" around the match review screen.

This is time and place stuff - start of game, start of 2nd half. Players at high levels of arousal post leaving the rooms trying to make something happen rather than playing the game...it's actually a GOOD sign that they care - or a sign that they care. Usual stuff right - when things go bad:

1/. Defenders just play on their men. They don't run off, they don't help each other. At the end of the game, they want to be able to say 'I kept my man quiet'. Of course, ball movement suffers MASSIVELY!

2/. Forwards wont come at the foot. They all want to be 'the target' and 'in range'....so at the end of the game they can say - hey, look, I was DANGEROUS...look at the scores I was involved in. Never mind that leads to a crowded forward line, players up the ground under pressure (they have no-one coming at them) and oppo intercept marks.

3/. Mids just want stats. Dumb, stupid numbers. How can you have played bad when you had 30?? Don't worry about the oppo - just get NUMBERS 'cos numbers mean you are a good player. Don't they?

We are in a pretty typical cycle right now that every single team from u7's on goes through at some stage...and the challenge is that there is only one way out of it. To refocus on goals that are effort related NOT footy related and just let the process take over. Honestly, all of the talk about inside 50's and scoring shots etc - right now, they are not worth a pinch of shit. Work out what we believe in:

- Tackle target with an associated missed tackle number.
- Secondary stoppages.
- Uncontested marks + HBR by oppo - willingness to chase and defend.
- Uncontested marks by = hbr by us (willingness to run and support one another)....
- Consecutive possessions by oppo...

There's a million of 'em...pick 3. Make the targets achievable but challenging. Bounce the ball.

This is really informative and instinctively smells true to me - when you go into your "shell" of course you do stuff that feels good/gets a pat on the head and it 100% in your own remit and control, rather than the much more nebulous 'everyone's job' stuff. If this is the problem then it's eminently fixable!

What do you mean "come at the foot" for forwards?

[bornadog]

I thought during the game why not throw Dale forward. I remember when he went on that goal kicking spree a few years ago.

We couldn't get the ball into the forward line

[mjp]

What do you mean "come at the foot" for forwards?

Lead AT THE KICKER. Don't run away from them, don't run at 45-degrees, don't run at 90-degrees. Make it an EASY KICK - come at the foot. Why don't they? 'Cos the oppo are in the way and they don't want to be in a physical contest....hence so many wide leads to 'space'....

Plus, if you lead at the kicker, it creates a vacuum behind them into which space the next person can lead...which creates a vacuum deeper into which space a slide can lead...

Football isn't complicated but you do have to:

1/. Run really hard.
2/. Be prepared to run really hard when you are almost certainly not going to get the ball or impact on the oppo.
3/. Be prepared to make strong physical contact with the oppo repeatedly.

[soupman]

....and I can hear everyone screaming "Ball Security" around the match review screen.

This is time and place stuff - start of game, start of 2nd half. Players at high levels of arousal post leaving the rooms trying to make something happen rather than playing the game...it's actually a GOOD sign that they care - or a sign that they care. Usual stuff right - when things go bad:

Interesting insight.

I've never really looked at our stoppages too closely in that sense, but the examples above mirror the ones we had in that Grand Final and are a huge part of the reason Melbourne had that few minutes of madness.

In that one too we had players (Treloar being the example that most comes to mind) also in a scenario where they have possession of the ball in a tackle and instead of riding it out and either conceding the free or ideally creating another stoppage where we can roll numbers up they instead try to release the ball on a low percentage play.

I guess our midfields philosophy has been that as a good "in close" side we would rather gamble on the ball still being live with us giving it a helping hand and trusting we will be able to take advantage of that over being worried about how a loose ball means the opposition will be primed to break away with it too.

It's certainly something we need to crack down on when we aren't going well.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

We were thrashed in a game we should win
It confirmed how bad we were v Melbourne.
We seem hopeless yet should be contenders.
This era that never was.
The club has some bold decisions to be made this is serious trouble.
We rely on talent yet our skills and mental state are shizenhausen.
Our system is broken or the players are not committed to it.
What happened during preseason and when will we be ready for this season?

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Marking out on the lead seems like such a rarity for us. Why? It also made me a little sick to see Cordy have success up forward when he's been mostly a liability for us the past few years. Now I know it's only 1 game, but we're also seeing Young excel with another team in an area we were lacking in. Is it game plan or personnel related? Or both? We just don't seem to get any fluidity in our game. Everything is such a struggle for us but so easy for the opposition. Even when our effort is there, getting a goal looks so arduous.

[1eyedog]

Nah - I didn't really say that. I said in the two examples that came immediately after a 'major break', we tried to force a handball out of congestion in an effort to make something (positive) happen. But what they should have done is simply secure the footy.

If you want me to say that mids chase cheap kicks when their team is losing, well, I 100% think that is the case...damning or otherwise.

Yeah I re-read your post and you're referring to unselfish football for the betterment of the team and I completely agree.

[1eyedog]

Interesting insight.

I've never really looked at our stoppages too closely in that sense, but the examples above mirror the ones we had in that Grand Final and are a huge part of the reason Melbourne had that few minutes of madness.

In that one too we had players (Treloar being the example that most comes to mind) also in a scenario where they have possession of the ball in a tackle and instead of riding it out and either conceding the free or ideally creating another stoppage where we can roll numbers up they instead try to release the ball on a low percentage play.

I guess our midfields philosophy has been that as a good "in close" side we would rather gamble on the ball still being live with us giving it a helping hand and trusting we will be able to take advantage of that over being worried about how a loose ball means the opposition will be primed to break away with it too.

It's certainly something we need to crack down on when we aren't going well.

Ball security can also be used simply to slow the flow of play down, especially relevant when the opposition has momentum or if we're getting beaten in the midfield.

We suck at reading these signs generally though and especially suck at tempo footy. We tried to play that game on the weekend with lots of sideways kicking across half back but it failed miserably as soon as we took a long option. It was a real train wreck.

[Danjul]

I spent all of 1 minute looking back over the first two examples you used as evidence to support the premise that the ruck is our issue.

Example 1 - 34 seconds after the first bounce the Saints score a goal. The centre bounce play that led to that goal was as follows. English clearly wins the tap to Macrae who is immediately wrapped up. Rather than holding onto the ball to force another stoppage he releases in the air and the Saints swoop. English again follows up breaking up the Saints handball but the ball serendipitously falls the Saints way and they are away to Phillipou.

A cursory glance at the match stats suggests that English broke even in hit outs with Marshall (Marshall is a very good young ruck who has dominated English in the past), and that's not counting the 'at least three occassions' that English outmanouvered Marshall took it out of the ruck and kicked the ball forward. I actually thought English was pretty good.

.

We just kept turning the ball over in this way. We needed to be smarter and force secondary stoppages because it played right into the Saints hands who actually wanted to get the ball moving as fast as possible.

Did you look closely enough?

In the opening seconds Bont is unmanned to the right of our axis moving to goal. No opposition player is near him. English also has Macrae behind (and possibly holding his opponent) on the Saints side of the centre circle.

At the time English hand touches he is reaching back past Marshall who?s front on to the ball. The ball seems to lob up to Macrae and his opponent. Clear in the picture is Bont trying to change direction and Libba still blocking his man. The ball comes out to Macrae who catches it above his head with three Saints all moving towards him. He is immediately tackled by two Saints before he has control of the ball. One has his body and the video shows one has hold of his left hand. The ball comes out (punched?) as Macrae falls to the ground, with 3 Saints chasing it.

Yes, English touched the ball. He did not have Macrae as a deliberate target. There was no tap to anyone. Macrae attempts to salvage the play but can?t because all momentum is on the Saints Dominant side. Macrae would never have been considered a target, both he and libba were blocking opponents . The ball should have gone to where Bont was in the clear, unmanned at all times, with a clear run to goal (with an unmanned Williams coming to assist). Once the actual ruck play was over The ground play was all high pressure contests where luck (or serendipity) rules.

But I do agree with your comment that English had a very good game. His around the ground play was sensational.



.

[Bulldog4life]

We couldn't get the ball into the forward line

True maybe start him forward next game. Have to try something new.