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  1. #1456
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    Re: Early Trade Rumours 2023

    Quote Originally Posted by hujsh View Post
    I don't think anyone is saying a great ruck can't contribute to team success but aside from Melbourne most premiership teams seem to get by fine without one including the team Grundy left.

    For me the question isn't even if English is any good. It's is he so good that we should commit more than a 1 millions dollars a season to his contract and how has that turned out for other clubs making similar commitments to ruckmen? TBH I'm not sure anyone aside from Gawn and Grundy has been good enough to command such a deal and when I look at them at their best and compare them to English I'm worried he's a bit of a white elephant.
    I think with the new regulations he's worth $1M and I think he's genuinely still improving his game. Nothing of his trajectory to date says' to me he's about to stop improving, and while that's not to say he won't get challenged at times I think he ads more via his positive attributes that can be measured versus the intangibles that can't. Though me saying that is comparing intangibles versus tangibles and that'd be hypocritical so I'll leave that there.

    Where does he improve? Obviously his strength in the contest and his craft, however, I also think he has another gear to go up as he continues to get stronger that will see him less fatigued and less prone to dropping out of games. It's not a binary thing, increased strength to compete in the grind gives us more chances at the coal face, but it also equals less fatigue and higher capacity to keep going around the ground. I'm not putting a ceiling on what he can do across his whole game.

    Leaving Jordon Sweet out of the equation for the moment, who is on the market that could do as good a job as Darcy Cameron who's probably going to be on $800K - a year after Tim hits $1M at the end of next year - if he keeps playing the way that he is or earlier if he extends? It's great to say we could save $4.5K per listed player if we just moved on Tim and found a Darcy Cameron to play his role instead, but that's much easier said than done. If we want to find someone as good as Darcy Cameron we're probably paying $800K to $900K unless we gamble on a lesser player to step up.

    And the latter part is really the crux of it. We all snigger at players reportedly moving on for as little as $40K per year, but if we pay Naughton and English $200K per year more than we might like what's the actual impact spread across the playing group (maybe $10K a player)? Does it really smash affordability as much as we think it does or are there ways around it through smart management and well, actually being a good place to work?
    Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.

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  3. #1457
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    Re: Early Trade Rumours 2023

    Quote Originally Posted by kruder View Post
    Would you take him for a 3rd/4th rounder? In regards to draft capital we will be spending up a lot on pick 4 and Croft in theory hence I have to keep reminding myself that we won't have a hell of a lot left to play with.
    No, I wouldn't even do that if it were me. We'll likely throw down as much as we possibly can though in desperation.

    I'd rather he stay at the Saints. I'm not sure why we need him, we may as well keep Crozier who'll play the same role and won't cost us anything.

  4. #1458
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    Re: Early Trade Rumours 2023

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Mo77 View Post
    No, I wouldn't even do that if it were me. We'll likely throw down as much as we possibly can though in desperation.

    I'd rather he stay at the Saints. I'm not sure why we need him, we may as well keep Crozier who'll play the same role and won't cost us anything.
    I love Croz been a good addition but he is cooked. Coffield has more talent than many players on our list make no mistake I would take the risk.

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  6. #1459
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    Re: Early Trade Rumours 2023

    I wonder if they would be interested in a DP trade with Coffield, if we must get him. If they can get say Pick 50 for Billings.

    (After possible FA compo) Pick 50, 55 & Coffield - for - Pick 40 & 75

    Dogs: Coffield & 61 extra draft points
    Saints: Turn two late thirds into a late second and lose a guy who hasn’t played god two years
    Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023

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  8. #1460
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    Re: Early Trade Rumours 2023

    Quote Originally Posted by jeemak View Post
    I think with the new regulations he's worth $1M and I think he's genuinely still improving his game. Nothing of his trajectory to date says' to me he's about to stop improving, and while that's not to say he won't get challenged at times I think he ads more via his positive attributes that can be measured versus the intangibles that can't. Though me saying that is comparing intangibles versus tangibles and that'd be hypocritical so I'll leave that there.

    Where does he improve? Obviously his strength in the contest and his craft, however, I also think he has another gear to go up as he continues to get stronger that will see him less fatigued and less prone to dropping out of games. It's not a binary thing, increased strength to compete in the grind gives us more chances at the coal face, but it also equals less fatigue and higher capacity to keep going around the ground. I'm not putting a ceiling on what he can do across his whole game.

    Leaving Jordon Sweet out of the equation for the moment, who is on the market that could do as good a job as Darcy Cameron who's probably going to be on $800K - a year after Tim hits $1M at the end of next year - if he keeps playing the way that he is or earlier if he extends? It's great to say we could save $4.5K per listed player if we just moved on Tim and found a Darcy Cameron to play his role instead, but that's much easier said than done. If we want to find someone as good as Darcy Cameron we're probably paying $800K to $900K unless we gamble on a lesser player to step up.

    And the latter part is really the crux of it. We all snigger at players reportedly moving on for as little as $40K per year, but if we pay Naughton and English $200K per year more than we might like what's the actual impact spread across the playing group (maybe $10K a player)? Does it really smash affordability as much as we think it does or are there ways around it through smart management and well, actually being a good place to work?
    Appreciate the thought out response. If I have an issue with any part above it's the idea that English still has improvement in him. Guy is 26 and feels like he's been 'developing' for an eternity. At the end of this next contract he'll be a veteran. At what point do we just have to accept he is the player he is? Maybe that player is worth a million a year post pay rise but I also hope he's not after significantly more than that because unlike Bont, Naughton and even Smith/JUH I'm not sure I've seen him show the match wining ability of the other players in that pay bracket.

    If something has to give, I'd rather give him or Smith, that's my personal conclusion

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  10. #1461
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    Re: Early Trade Rumours 2023

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    No he wasn't. Tim's numbers stack up to Grundy at the same age, if not better.

    Player Statistics Comparison
    Brodie Grundy Name Timothy English
    Melbourne Demons Team Western Bulldogs
    Ruck Position Ruck
    194 Career Games 108
    Sturt Origin South Fremantle
    April 15, 1994 Date of Birth August 10, 1997
    Turned 26 in 2020 Age 26yr 1mth
    203cm Height 207cm
    104kg Weight 103kg
    2012 National Draft Last Drafted In 2016 National Draft
    Round 1, Pick #18 Last Draft Position Round 1, Pick #19
    Collingwood Magpies Last Drafted By Western Bulldogs
    2020 Stats for Season 2023
    19 Games 23
    5.5 Kicks 11.2
    8.8 Handballs 7.9
    14.4 Disposals 19.1
    3.0 Marks 6.3
    0.2 Goals 0.7
    0.2 Behinds 0.2
    3.6 Tackles 4.3
    31.4 Hitouts 31.2
    1.9 Inside 50s 3.2
    0.3 Goal Assists 0.3
    2.3 Frees For 1.8
    1.5 Frees Against 1.5
    8.9 Contested Possessions 9.2
    5.8 Uncontested Possessions 11.0
    10.6 Effective Disposals 13.9
    73.6% Disposal Efficiency % 72.8%
    2.5 Clangers 3.6
    1.1 Contested Marks 1.3
    0.3 Marks Inside 50 0.6
    3.2 Clearances 3.3
    0.7 Rebound 50s 1.9
    2.2 One Percenters 4.3
    0.1 Bounces 0.3
    84.5 Time On Ground % 85.9
    0.8 Centre Clearances 1.2
    2.4 Stoppage Clearances 2.1
    3.3 Score Involvements 5.3
    99.8 Metres Gained 255.0
    1.8 Turnovers 3.3
    1.9 Intercepts 4.3
    0.5 Tackles Inside 50 0.4
    87.9 AFL Fantasy Score 118.7
    118.4 Supercoach Score 128.0
    When your argument relies on statistics you have lost the debate.
    Life is to be Enjoyed not Endured

  11. #1462
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    Re: Early Trade Rumours 2023

    Quote Originally Posted by hujsh View Post
    Appreciate the thought out response. If I have an issue with any part above it's the idea that English still has improvement in him. Guy is 26 and feels like he's been 'developing' for an eternity. At the end of this next contract he'll be a veteran. At what point do we just have to accept he is the player he is? Maybe that player is worth a million a year post pay rise but I also hope he's not after significantly more than that because unlike Bont, Naughton and even Smith/JUH I'm not sure I've seen him show the match wining ability of the other players in that pay bracket.

    If something has to give, I'd rather give him or Smith, that's my personal conclusion
    Is a big guy really a veteran at 26-27 years of age?

    If he'd have levelled out this year versus the last year or so then I'd agree with you but he hasn't. Darcy Cameron is still improving and becoming more reliable and he's got two years on Tim.

    Bont's older than Tim and possibly had his most consistent and productive season give or take, and I do think even he can go up a level if he stays injury free and kicks at goal more accurately.

    Players shouldn't be tapering off in their development at any time in their careers, until their physical limits have peaked. Tim's a few years away from that.
    Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.

  12. #1463
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    Re: Early Trade Rumours 2023

    Quote Originally Posted by jeemak View Post
    Is a big guy really a veteran at 26-27 years of age?

    If he'd have levelled out this year versus the last year or so then I'd agree with you but he hasn't. Darcy Cameron is still improving and becoming more reliable and he's got two years on Tim.

    Bont's older than Tim and possibly had his most consistent and productive season give or take, and I do think even he can go up a level if he stays injury free and kicks at goal more accurately.

    Players shouldn't be tapering off in their development at any time in their careers, until their physical limits have peaked. Tim's a few years away from that.
    We've waited patiently for Tim to emerge and he really had a good season this year. He still has improvement in him and with his size and mobility I'd be in no hurry to see him go.
    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

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  14. #1464
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    Re: Early Trade Rumours 2023

    Didn?t add kick outs to the English Grundy stats

  15. #1465
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    Re: Early Trade Rumours 2023

    Quote Originally Posted by meenies View Post
    Didn?t add kick outs to the English Grundy stats
    People don't give him enough credit.
    Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.

  16. #1466
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    Re: Early Trade Rumours 2023

    Quote Originally Posted by jeemak View Post
    Is a big guy really a veteran at 26-27 years of age?

    If he'd have levelled out this year versus the last year or so then I'd agree with you but he hasn't. Darcy Cameron is still improving and becoming more reliable and he's got two years on Tim.

    Bont's older than Tim and possibly had his most consistent and productive season give or take, and I do think even he can go up a level if he stays injury free and kicks at goal more accurately.

    Players shouldn't be tapering off in their development at any time in their careers, until their physical limits have peaked. Tim's a few years away from that.
    No, at the end of his NEXT contract though which you'd imagine would be 3-4 years minimum at which point he's 30+, which is what I meant/was trying to say.

  17. #1467
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    Re: Early Trade Rumours 2023

    Quote Originally Posted by hujsh View Post
    No, at the end of his NEXT contract though which you'd imagine would be 3-4 years minimum at which point he's 30+, which is what I meant/was trying to say.
    And by that time I expect he'll have peaked and will be winding down a bit most likely - after hopefully eclipsing the annual value of his contract whilst he was at his peak - offsetting the disparity in value on his way up.

    Inury free I reckon we'll see the best of Tim at ages 30-32.
    Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.

  18. #1468
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    Re: Early Trade Rumours 2023

    Entitled prick T Morris (aka Tom M) reporting that Melbourne are open to trading Oliver for the right price.....

  19. #1469
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    Re: Early Trade Rumours 2023

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogsthru&thru View Post
    Entitled prick T Morris (aka Tom M) reporting that Melbourne are open to trading Oliver for the right price.....
    Something weird here.

    I don't know but absolutely believe it's Steven May

  20. #1470
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    Re: Early Trade Rumours 2023

    Tom Morris

    Melbourne is open to trading star midfielder Clayton Oliver, with rival clubs already enquiring about his availability.

    The response these clubs received has left the door ajar for the four-time best and fairest to depart Melbourne in the trade period, according to two sources with direct knowledge of discussions

    https://www.sen.com.au/news/2023/10/...rustration-and

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