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  1. #16
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    Re: Counter Point: We played well vs Gold Coast.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    You don't need to tackle if you've got the ball.

    Again - Tackles are a point in time stat. Minus 10 in a 5-minute period? That's effort. -14 for the game? That's -3.5/q. Or -1 every 10 minutes...it just isn't statistically relevant.

    Plus - tackles ain't tackles. Look up what it ACTUALLY means to have a tackle...it's a bit tenuous...
    I'm loving this.

    I think we did bring ok effort mainly, however I'm trying to reconcile that with a.) Rowell doing what he wanted in the midfield second half b.) Smith not registering a tackle and 3.) our defence (Jones intercept game was sublime granted) appearing to be really down.

    The tackle stats in defence are pretty grim reading.

    Richards 1, Duryea 1, O'donnell 1, Jones 0, Gardner 0.
    Tbf they seemed to get out the back a bit, playing that counter attack game and defenders don't have massive tackle numbers; in comparison Andrew has equaled that quintet with 3.

    I haven't the time to break it down further, and yes stats are stats. Your point re over the course of the game it's not a lot is a good one, however I can't completely discount them and I think there was some effort based elements to the defeat.

    All in all it appears after the start we got Dew went to a deeper zone and played on the counter or they just started winning at the source hard to tell which.

    It was a 45 point turnaround at one point by the end of the 3rd. The period between the 10 minute mark of the first and the 28 min mark of the third we were - 8 goals. That start maybe is making the scoreline seem more palatable.


    Inside 50s (also a stat) don't mean a lot if a team is setup to counter.

    They generated the same amount of shots inside 50 which is far more relevant. (22 from 48 v 26 from 66)

    Their deep zoning and midfield pressure didn't give us much space and clean looks inside 50, on the contrary they had paddocks of space in behind.

    Back to Smith - how rare is it for a mid not to register a tackle and how do we interpret that?

  2. #17
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    Re: Counter Point: We played well vs Gold Coast.

    Well...it isn't about tackles as such - you want your players to HUNT tackles when the oppo has it but that doesn't always reflect in a tackle on the stat sheet. Does that mean the stat is no good? Well, of course not but you have to watch with your eyes and let the stats fill in the blanks not the other way around.

    Jones (L version) I thought played very well. He had no tackles - but he 'brought pressure' and showed intent. I didn't notice Andrew really but apparently he had a couple of tackles...Jones didn't - I'm not sure that means much. Outside of the high number of inside 50's in the 'Dogs forward half, the ball 'lived' there for extended periods of time...meaning more numbers, more contests, more opportunities to tackle. You could suggest that we would have been better served by dropping numbers out (WELL OUT) of our F50 to both create room for the forwards + support the backs who were pretty much all one-v-one in space meaning when the GC did go forward they went forward and SCORED but:

    1/. We have a territory style and we press, press, press.
    2/. There is a downside to conceding possession in f50 and the oppo might very well be able to chain it out by hands if the numbers get too much in there favour AND they have smart players around the ball who recognise it. What number differential allows you to maintain enough pressure to still force a dump kick BUT have sufficient numbers back to ensure any one-v-ones can be quickly/easily turrned to 2v1s? +2? +3?? +4?? Probably depends who you're playing against.

    Tackles in themselves are not really that useful a stat but they can be used to confirm 'stuff' and the so-called pressure index used on the tv commentary could probably be reproduced in a simple form by a simple 'oppo possessions / our tackles' and give you a reasonable enough estimate of where it's at...Smith getting zero tackles is unusual for a mid but remember, that doesn't mean he didn't lay any tackles - merely he didn't lay anything that comply with the CD definition (retard/grab your opponent and that opponent does not have an effective disposal)...so a half tackle followed by a simple skill error is a tackle...a great tackle with the ball flung on the boot and landing in your team-mates arms fortuitously is NOT a tackle...

    I don't even really know what I'm saying anymore (I'm just typing really) but like most stats they only tell half the story (at best) and - like history - that story is always told on behalf of the winners.
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.

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  4. #18
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    Re: Counter Point: We played well vs Gold Coast.

    Yeah makes sense.

    Great discussion.

    The eyes first and then the stats is perfect.

  5. #19
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    Re: Counter Point: We played well vs Gold Coast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grantysghost View Post
    Yeah makes sense.

    Great discussion.

    The eyes first and then the stats is perfect.
    A few ex-players are pretty open about tackle stats - if an opponent has the ball and your teammates tackles them, if you join the tackle just before the ump blows the whistle for a ball-up you get credited with a tackle as well. Was it Robbie Grey who was pretty open about it? HF's trick to bump up numbers.

    Scouting notes for opposition mids sometime instruct players not to tackle, and just corrale them to get the to release quickly (Gaz jnr a famous example). Especially guys who can slip tackles and kick forward
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  6. #20
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    Re: Counter Point: We played well vs Gold Coast.

    Good thread. Love the positivity.

    Bit of a media pile on the Cats this week. We’ll need to be on our game!

  7. #21
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    Re: Counter Point: We played well vs Gold Coast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mofra View Post
    ...if an opponent has the ball and your teammates tackles them, if you join the tackle just before the ump blows the whistle for a ball-up you get credited with a tackle as well.
    That is 100% what happens.

    Q: What if there is more than one player applying a tackle?

    A: After a tackle has been applied, if a second player or a third player (and so on) from the same team arrive and also apply a tackle and they have an impact on the ball carrier, then they’ll get awarded with a tackle too. If they don’t impact the ball carrier, then they won’t get paid a tackle.

    https://www.championdata.com/faqs/afl/

    (There's a video of this on the link)
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  9. #22
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    Re: Counter Point: We played well vs Gold Coast.

    So what we're saying is that GG is wrong, right?
    Nobody's looking for a puppeteer in today's wintry economic climate.

  10. #23
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    Re: Counter Point: We played well vs Gold Coast.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeemak View Post
    So what we're saying is that GG is wrong, right?
    I think so. You guys suck

    I do enjoy taking a tenuous position and willing it uphill.

    Think if you take your ego out of discussions you generally get to the right answer.

    Which is MJP is taking the mick floating both sides! HA!

  11. #24
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    Re: Counter Point: We played well vs Gold Coast.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeemak View Post
    So what we're saying is that GG is wrong, right?
    That's typically a good rule of thumb
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  12. #25
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    Re: Counter Point: We played well vs Gold Coast.

    Quote Originally Posted by GVGjr View Post
    That's typically a good rule of thumb
    I'm hurt G.


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  14. #26
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    Re: Counter Point: We played well vs Gold Coast.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp View Post
    Geez, that match day thread is a blood path isn't it.

    We played incredibly WELL against the Gold Coast. The ball LIVED inside our forward 50m area - and a few leaked goals ended up proving the difference. Allowing the goals to Lukocious (2nd q) and Humphry (last one of the game) where they were able to get goal-side of 'everyone' and 'just tap it in' was not ideal...we had our chances to score in similar ways but simply couldn't do it.

    Credit to the GC - they busted their butts defensively and repeatedly threw the ball on their boot to clear the area...somehow those rushed kicks seemed to find a GC team-mate more often than not...our pressure was GOOD. We forced a hard-out...it just didn't work out. Yep - I know Naughton battled. Ballard has been the #1 interceptor in the game so far this season though so if you didn't foresee a situation where he was going to be a problem then you probably haven't been paying attention.

    I don't know what all the angst is about. We had basically won 8 in a row going in (only one quarter vs Port costing us the sweep) and we did play in Ballarat one week then Darwin the next...we've hardly played a home game truth be told. Witts is a TERRIBLE match up for English (particularly in slippery conditions where he can't really mark it) and he 100% played the game on his terms not Tim's....

    Was the game fun to watch? Not really. Did we play well? We sure did. Are there some people completely over-reacting and saying we have somehow lost the ability to play when the footy must have been like a cake of soap for most of the match? Yeah...don't listen to them.

    We lost a close one to a desperate team away from home. It's gonna be alright. Bring on the Catters.
    I still hold you solely responsible for the loss Mike ... you cursed the team with your "We wouldn't be stupid enough thread". Stop putting the Moz on us before the game
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  16. #27
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    Re: Counter Point: We played well vs Gold Coast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scraggers View Post
    I still hold you solely responsible for the loss Mike ... you cursed the team with your "We wouldn't be stupid enough thread". Stop putting the Moz on us before the game
    Finally someone said it

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  18. #28
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    Re: Counter Point: We played well vs Gold Coast.

    I still think we played dumb football. We just tried to connect way too much in adverse conditions through over use when we didn't need to. There were so many dumb last in the chain handballs, especially deep in our F50 that were not to our advantage and were quickly turned over. Did we think we were at Marvel?

    Gold Coast often treated the game like a wet weather game and moved the ball forward often via dump kicks into space. It was only a matter of time before they won a few one on one contests in their forward half of the ground. Without Jones we lose by 4-5 goals and that's a real worry. No Miller either. I think Gardner showed there is nothing behind Jones if he goes down.

    Reckon Bevo was done up stairs it was a great scalp for the Suns and injects a bit of life in their season.

    I'm generally ok with the loss and looking forward to seeing how we go this week off the back of a pretty gruelling interstate trip.
    But then again, I'm an Internet poster and Bevo is a premiership coach so draw your own conclusions.

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  20. #29
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    Re: Counter Point: We played well vs Gold Coast.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1eyedog View Post
    I still think we played dumb football. We just tried to connect way too much in adverse conditions through over use when we didn't need to. There were so many dumb last in the chain handballs, especially deep in our F50 that were not to our advantage and were quickly turned over. Did we think we were at Marvel?

    Gold Coast often treated the game like a wet weather game and moved the ball forward often via dump kicks into space. It was only a matter of time before they won a few one on one contests in their forward half of the ground. Without Jones we lose by 4-5 goals and that's a real worry. No Miller either. I think Gardner showed there is nothing behind Jones if he goes down.

    Reckon Bevo was done up stairs it was a great scalp for the Suns and injects a bit of life in their season.

    I'm generally ok with the loss and looking forward to seeing how we go this week off the back of a pretty gruelling interstate trip.
    The handball stat was insane. Nearly double.

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  22. #30
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    Re: Counter Point: We played well vs Gold Coast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grantysghost View Post
    The handball stat was insane. Nearly double.
    Given the expected dewy conditions (which happened halfway through the 2QT), I thought we may have adapted and kicked the ball more. I understand that marking was also made more difficult but I just felt even though the stats tell us we were the better team, GC played the territory game much better than we did.

    This was a game that reminded me of the 2020 season. 100% effort and 10% reward.
    But then again, I'm an Internet poster and Bevo is a premiership coach so draw your own conclusions.

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