Grim reading! herald Sun analysis of where we are falling down

[Sedat]

The only thing grim is the Herald sun

How has that post added anything to the conversation? It was a very interesting read and I appreciate TBT for starting the thread and others for adding to the discussion.

You should be thankful you live in a country where you get to choose which media you want to consume - there are plenty of countries out there that don't have such a basic luxury, and are instead spoon-fed state media propaganda from one source.

[Sedat]

Saw an interesting stat tonight on ?On the Couch?.

Gryan Miers has kicked the ball inside 50 on 42 occasions this and his teammate has marked it 45% of the time, Bazlenka has kicked it inside 50 on 41 occasions and his teammate has marked it 2% of the time.

FMD!

Yep, I fell off my chair when I heard that stat last night.

So is the problem our forwards and their leading patterns or the midfield and their connection/delivery? Or is it the overall game plan, which feels like a modern day variation of "Long Bombs to Snake", except Naughts also has to compete in the air against Marra, Cody and Rory as well as his two nominated defenders? And because Naughts is the big dog, he feels like he needs to compete absolutely everything in the air and occasionally spoils a teammate in better position to mark it.

It's certainly a mess and it threatens to derail our aspirations to properly contend in 2023.

[Mantis]

Yep, I fell off my chair when I heard that stat last night.

So is the problem our forwards and their leading patterns or the midfield and their connection/delivery? Or is it the overall game plan, which feels like a modern day variation of "Long Bombs to Snake", except Naughts also has to compete in the air against Marra, Cody and Rory as well as his two nominated defenders? And because Naughts is the big dog, he feels like he needs to compete absolutely everything in the air and occasionally spoils a teammate in better position to mark it.

It's certainly a mess and it threatens to derail our aspirations to properly contend in 2023.

I think it?s a little bit of everything discussed.. the forward line looks extremely ?busy? and it?s quite rare that our forwards have space to lead into?. The kicking skills of a number of our players is also well below what would be the ?mean?.

Agree that the season is being derailed by our inability to hit the scoreboard? something needs to change quickly.

Over to you Bevo.

[hujsh]

How has that post added anything to the conversation? It was a very interesting read and I appreciate TBT for starting the thread and others for adding to the discussion.

You should be thankful you live in a country where you get to choose which media you want to consume - there are plenty of countries out there that don't have such a basic luxury, and are instead spoon-fed state media propaganda from one source.

Second part is a bit weird a response to criticising a Newscorp tabloid. BAD is just as free to hate the paper as he is to appropriate or not the supposed choice in media.

First part is fair though it's not really engaging with the subject which seems valid.

[Sedat]

Second part is a bit weird a response to criticising a Newscorp tabloid. BAD is just as free to hate the paper as he is to appropriate or not the supposed choice in media.

First part is fair though it's not really engaging with the subject which seems valid.

I guess after the 1,000th time proclaiming his hatred for the Herald-Sun with no context for the actual content of the specific article quoted, it adds nothing to the discussion IMO. Criticism of the media is extremely valid in a free country like ours (I am not a fan of the media class at all, but I always try to challenge the specific content from any reporter/media organisation in my posts), but without any context to specific content it just feels like more boring angry-man shouting at cloud echo chamber type stuff.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Yep, I fell off my chair when I heard that stat last night.

So is the problem our forwards and their leading patterns or the midfield and their connection/delivery? Or is it the overall game plan, which feels like a modern day variation of "Long Bombs to Snake", except Naughts also has to compete in the air against Marra, Cody and Rory as well as his two nominated defenders? And because Naughts is the big dog, he feels like he needs to compete absolutely everything in the air and occasionally spoils a teammate in better position to mark it.

It's certainly a mess and it threatens to derail our aspirations to properly contend in 2023.

I'd also add that I think opposition teams know pretty well how to defeat us. Make our forward line busy and hurt us on the inevitable turnover or drop of the ball. They know their forward line will be wide open.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to know why we see these same problems all the time but like you say it needs to be addressed. During our win streak we didn't have these issues. Not sure if it's another chicken and egg situation. Were we playing differently? Better? Or was our (poorer) opposition trying to play 'their' way, enabling us to play more freely?

[bulldogtragic]

I guess after the 1,000th time proclaiming his hated for the Herald-Sun with no context for the actual content of the article quoted, it adds nothing to the discussion. Criticism of the media is extremely valid (I am not a fan of the media class at all, but I challenge the content from any reporter/media organisation I criticise), but without any context to specific content it is just more boring angry-man shouting at cloud echo chamber stuff.

Yep, not getting personal about it I don’t think Rupert is on the phone telling journos to accurately report WBFC disposal stats to ramp up his share price or topple a government. This is an uncomfortable conversation (our bad kicking, making us a poorer footy team) and we need to discuss that. I don’t go for any media anymore, but the facts or data someone presents like this isn’t an ‘angle’ or biased scoop or hit piece. It’s a red warning light to be honest, along with ‘Mr 2%’ last night. There ain’t no premierships coming to WO anytime soon if this decade of poor skills continues to roll on. After all this time nmakinh the same errors, not improving key things like goal kicking and never making top four under Bevo… I don’t know what the answer is. An illuminating discussion on here with knowledgeable footy thinkers might help me understand it. Be the source ABC or HUN. I think we see the facts irrespective of them lined up on a page long enough to make you want to cry.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I think it?s a little bit of everything discussed.. the forward line looks extremely ?busy? and it?s quite rare that our forwards have space to lead into?. The kicking skills of a number of our players is also well below what would be the ?mean?.

Agree that the season is being derailed by our inability to hit the scoreboard? something needs to change quickly.

Over to you Bevo.

Yep, definitely both.

I watched our forwards closely a number of times on Saturday Night and they REFUSE to move. Marra is actually by far the best at it, but whether it's fatigue or still learning (or both), he can sometimes be 60-80m away from the play and not in a position to offer the kicker an option.

Naughton and Lobb's movements were poor. The reason we see at least 2 (and often 3, plus Cody) competing for the same ball is the lack of their movement. They wait for the long ball. It's actually the opposite of what Cameron does, and even Hawkins.

My biggest criticism of Bevo is that this isn't new. The poor connection between mids and forwards has existed for years, so too has our poor conversion. At what point do we accept this isn't something he CAN fix?

[bulldogtragic]

Yep, definitely both.

I watched our forwards closely a number of times on Saturday Night and they REFUSE to move. Marra is actually by far the best at it, but whether it's fatigue or still learning (or both), he can sometimes be 60-80m away from the play and not in a position to offer the kicker an option.

Naughton and Lobb's movements were poor. The reason we see at least 2 (and often 3, plus Cody) competing for the same ball is the lack of their movement. They wait for the long ball. It's actually the opposite of what Cameron does, and even Hawkins.

My biggest criticism of Bevo is that this isn't new. The poor connection between mids and forwards has existed for years, so too has our poor conversion. At what point do we accept this isn't something he CAN fix?

If these were fixable things, would Bevo not have fixed them by now?

[mjp]

Topping the GPS data was Blicavs (14.1km), Mullin (14km), Miers (13.9km) and Guthrie (13.4km). The only Bulldog in the top five was ex-Cat Ryan Gardner (13.8km), who played on Jeremy Cameron.

Blicavs: 17 disposals, 14km.
Mullin: 10 disposals, 14km.
Miers: 20 disposals, 14km
Guthrie, 16 disposals, 13.5km

Blicavs played a part and Miers was solid, but when we are using Mullin and Guthrie as examples of what players need to do...seriously give me a spell. Running > 1km per possession is never a great pointer to effective footy...it is a great sign of a headless chicken rolling aimlessly around the field...yeah, they're trying but...

All that said, I don't mind the article and it raises some great points. Our boys should read it and feel confident that even with some of the poor field kicking, from a goal-kicking stand point alone just being a little bit tidier would have changed the result in each of the last two weeks...and sure, bad kicking is bad footy and all BUT worse footy is not even being in a position to score.

[Danjul]

Yep, definitely both.

I watched our forwards closely a number of times on Saturday Night and they REFUSE to move. Marra is actually by far the best at it, but whether it's fatigue or still learning (or both), he can sometimes be 60-80m away from the play and not in a position to offer the kicker an option.

Naughton and Lobb's movements were poor. The reason we see at least 2 (and often 3, plus Cody) competing for the same ball is the lack of their movement. They wait for the long ball. It's actually the opposite of what Cameron does, and even Hawkins.

My biggest criticism of Bevo is that this isn't new. The poor connection between mids and forwards has existed for years, so too has our poor conversion. At what point do we accept this isn't something he CAN fix?

This is the nucleus of their problem.

They have to wait because when the backman intercepted the ball he had to stop, look sideways and then back to find where Gardner is. The kick back towards the opposition goal square is followed by a kick to the half back line and then a little chip to the wing, as close to the boundary line as possible.

By this stage the opposition has flooded our forward area and put their 2 best backmen within spoiling distance of Naughton and the rest of the team has set up for the quick run down the ground. A little pressure on the ball carrier means their kick is 2 degrees off target and our forwards would be wasting their energy trying to get the ball anyway.

Geelong was a lot more aggressive. Often with a fast (well rehearsed) move down the corridor. Their forwards knew where the ball was going.

[bornadog]

How has that post added anything to the conversation? It was a very interesting read and I appreciate TBT for starting the thread and others for adding to the discussion.

You should be thankful you live in a country where you get to choose which media you want to consume - there are plenty of countries out there that don't have such a basic luxury, and are instead spoon-fed state media propaganda from one source.

I hate that paper and every mask head owned by NewsCorp

[Bullies]

This is the nucleus of their problem.

They have to wait because when the backman intercepted the ball he had to stop, look sideways and then back to find where Gardner is. The kick back towards the opposition goal square is followed by a kick to the half back line and then a little chip to the wing, as close to the boundary line as possible.

By this stage the opposition has flooded our forward area and put their 2 best backmen within spoiling distance of Naughton and the rest of the team has set up for the quick run down the ground. A little pressure on the ball carrier means their kick is 2 degrees off target and our forwards would be wasting their energy trying to get the ball anyway.

Geelong was a lot more aggressive. Often with a fast (well rehearsed) move down the corridor. Their forwards knew where the ball was going.

Opposition are happy to let us switch down back and kick across to Gardner or O'Brien knowing they can't kick especially under pressure and they will more than likely turn it over. So glad they brought up the disposal of Baker as he is an absolute butcher. Again we knew what we were getting there that his skills were not up to AFL standard.

[Sedat]

I hate that paper and every mask head owned by NewsCorp

I had absolutely no idea you felt that way. Thanks for clarifying.

[mjp]

Opposition are happy to let us switch down back and kick across to Gardner or O'Brien knowing they can't kick especially under pressure and they will more than likely turn it over. So glad they brought up the disposal of Baker as he is an absolute butcher. Again we knew what we were getting there that his skills were not up to AFL standard.

Baker's kicking is fine.

There is no doubt on Sat that the Cats were actively allowing us to switch back to Gardner. But I would ask exactly what everyone would like us to do?

We need to switch to the fatside to open the ground up/avoid kicking it down Stewart's throat...and a 35m + switch is not a great idea...so a link gets set up and at times that link will be O'Brien or Gardner...you can't rest skinny-side every time or your oppo will let you go...and getting pinned in against the boundary is worse than being pinned at CHB/in the corridor isn't it? Because from the boundary you have three options (lateral, 45, dtl - I guess u-kick is there but no-one wants to kick it through their defensive goal square in 2023)...so that minimises the options which makes it EASIER to defend and increases the pressure on players with shaky kicking skills...

We have to switch the play, spread the ground through both width and length - and kick it through the zone. You cant do that on a skinny field.

Baker had a bad night but he's had a good season. Gardner is not in the form he was in 2021 but that's OK...he plays with effort and energy and within his limitations.

Part of what i am seeing right now is when things aren't going perfectly we always want to KICK our way through when we really need to RUN our way through. Daniel does this most effectively (as does Dale when he's playing well - again, he isn't in that form right now and has become a bit of a straight line player) but you need to change angles with your LEGS to catch the oppo unawares. A zone can set up to cover a 35m switch - they can't cover a 35m switch and a 60m switch...so we need to break the lines with our LEGS (at angles) like we do when we're playing well.

For it to happen though, we need to attack with all 18 players active (keeping the ground BIG) and the ball-carriers prepared to change angles with their LEGS before kicking...

Daniel changing direction by 180-degrees on the weekend and THEN releasing by foot is an example.

If the expected score from the weekend STILL had us winning (and that only assesses shots on goal in terms of the outcome) despite some of our field kicking woes...I mean, things aren't that bad. And 2.7 to 8.2 after half-time means we suddenly need to worship at the alter of football savant Grien Miers? The kid had a good game but let's just back the truck up a touch please.

Ball movement needs more than one player. Blaming the kicker (as we seem determined to do right now) and hanging them out to dry (aka Footscray VFL side) is fine but there's more to it than that isn't there?

We aren't in great form or synch right now. We were playing better a few weeks back...let's hope the worm turns this weekend.